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> The USSR tried basic income? News to me. They had a system where every citizen had an income, no matter what The difference is that you could not make more

> The USSR tried basic income? News to me. They had a system where every citizen had an income, no matter what The difference is that you could not make more than that > Doesn't Switzerland have high productivity and wealth? No, Switzerland salaries have been rising a lot in the past 20 years, but labour productivity has been slowly but steadily going down. Most of the salaries are high compared to siblings western countries (for example Italy, where I come from) but they are just enough to live in Switzerland. So the answer is no: not everybody needs to work 40 hours a week, they just need to work enough to gain a basic income that's enough to have a decent life. In Zurich a 40 sm (430 square foot) costs between 1.600 and 2.300 euros/month. In Italy that's a very good salary. And you can rent a house of more than 100 sm (1,000 sf) in the centre of a big city like Rome or Milan. Switzerland recently rejected the idea of an UBI set at 2,500 Swiss francs/month =~ 2.100 euros, in Italy for many families that's around 2 salaries. Imagine being Swiss, having more than 2 thousand euros of UBI from your country and living in Italy. A family of 2 could afford a villa in Como lake, next to George Clooney have his. The same can be said for someone receiving an UBI in Bay Area and Missisipi. Making it work is already very hard, making it right is next to impossible.

clavalle 9y ago
>The difference is that you could not make more than that Pretty big difference. A core difference, as a matter of fact. Switzerland has the 9th highest GDP per capita (higher than the US) in the world. They rank 4th in a tight bunch at the top of the world happiness index. It seems that UBI hasn't collapsed their country or turned it into a dystopian tyranny.
- walterstucco 9y ago
  > Pretty big difference. A core difference, as a matter of fact Not as much as you think USSR collapsed under war debts and lack of freedom, not because people wanted more money And the first notable consequence were people dying for home made vodka: they couldn't afford to buy vodka in the stores and poisoned themselves > It seems that UBI They rejected it! That's why it did no harm > Switzerland has the 9th highest GDP per capita It matters only if you, as I said, live outside Switzerland It's the 9th highest GDP per capita, but it probably ranks higher for living cost If you live there, as I did, I can assure you that for your basic needs 30,000 Swiss francs (around 31,000 USD) are barely enough to survive 40 minutes away there's Italy, Milan, where 30,000 euros/year is more than enough to have a decent life Don't you think this would put some pressure on Swiss borders? It's what happened when Schengen allowed people to go to Berlin and live on allowance UBI is a delicate matter, it make citizen dependent on the state providing, without giving bak Now we in Europe have a pretty decent public health care, superior to the US one, and a pretty decent state welfare It's based on the fact that everybody is contributing (well, if we don't count tax evasion, but that's a different matter) in proportion to their personal income if a small part of the population is gonna live on UBI (say 15%) and nothing else, it's gonna put even more pressure on taxation of the productive segment of the population, which is already heavily taxed (in Italy on average is 47%, in Denmark it can reach a wobbling 60%) It would destroy welfare as we know it I'm not against, but I don't share the enthusiasm I would be very careful

clavalle 9y ago

>The difference is that you could not make more than that Pretty big difference. A core difference, as a matter of fact. Switzerland has the 9th highest GDP per capita (higher than the US) in the world. They rank 4th in a tight bunch at the top of the world happiness index. It seems that UBI hasn't collapsed their country or turned it into a dystopian tyranny.

walterstucco 9y ago
> Pretty big difference. A core difference, as a matter of fact Not as much as you think USSR collapsed under war debts and lack of freedom, not because people wanted more money And the first notable consequence were people dying for home made vodka: they couldn't afford to buy vodka in the stores and poisoned themselves > It seems that UBI They rejected it! That's why it did no harm > Switzerland has the 9th highest GDP per capita It matters only if you, as I said, live outside Switzerland It's the 9th highest GDP per capita, but it probably ranks higher for living cost If you live there, as I did, I can assure you that for your basic needs 30,000 Swiss francs (around 31,000 USD) are barely enough to survive 40 minutes away there's Italy, Milan, where 30,000 euros/year is more than enough to have a decent life Don't you think this would put some pressure on Swiss borders? It's what happened when Schengen allowed people to go to Berlin and live on allowance UBI is a delicate matter, it make citizen dependent on the state providing, without giving bak Now we in Europe have a pretty decent public health care, superior to the US one, and a pretty decent state welfare It's based on the fact that everybody is contributing (well, if we don't count tax evasion, but that's a different matter) in proportion to their personal income if a small part of the population is gonna live on UBI (say 15%) and nothing else, it's gonna put even more pressure on taxation of the productive segment of the population, which is already heavily taxed (in Italy on average is 47%, in Denmark it can reach a wobbling 60%) It would destroy welfare as we know it I'm not against, but I don't share the enthusiasm I would be very careful