4 ms·

I ended up stumbling on that idea of "double bookkeeping" as well, though in the context of acute drug induced hallucinations. What made it hard for me is that

I ended up stumbling on that idea of "double bookkeeping" as well, though in the context of acute drug induced hallucinations. What made it hard for me is that both sets of ideas are correct about some aspects of my experience and wrong about some aspects. The hallucinations are mostly wrong where they deviate from "standard" reality, but they're not entirely so and seem to be capturing some patterns that my brain is picking up that I can't articulate through other mechanisms. Counter-intuitively, admitting that there were facets of the hallucinations that did make sense made it easier to deal with accepting that there were parts that didn't as well. I view it as having two approximate models for reality which have different faults -- one model is knowingly incomplete (but scrupulously consistent); the other model is knowingly inconsistent (but has models for any experience, and serves for "experimental" ideas). The goal is to try and work both towards a shared (underlying, objective) truth trapped "between" them in some sense.

wellthen 9y ago
Well put, after a bit of reflection I mostly subscribe to the concept of several "approximate models" wherein "objective" truth lies somewhere inbetween. My own hallucinations were auditory and in the instances where they weren't random noises they only said my name, often in "plausible voices" (i.e. voices of people I had talked to recently or were nearby) and as such I don't ascribe much meaning to them. I can however see how other psychotic symptoms I've had followed the "approximation"-pattern -- had an incident where for about a day I was convinced my left arm weren't actually my arm and was most likely grafted on by aliens. In hindsight, this probably manifested this way at least partially because of fear of being different due to my diagnosis.
- theoh 9y ago
  I find the idea that "the map is not the territory" useful in considering delusional beliefs. It keeps belief and reality separate, where "belief" could include things you know to be hallucinations etc (though I've never had those). https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/The_map_is_not_the_territory https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/The_map_is_not_the_territory
cvsh 9y ago
>but they're not entirely so and seem to be capturing some patterns that my brain is picking up that I can't articulate through other mechanisms. Drugs made me more aware of how routinely our brains mildly hallucinate in ways that are designed to be imperceptible so as to 'smooth over' our perception of the world (i.e. our blind spots https://visionaryeyecare.wordpress.com/2008/08/04/eye-test-find-your-blind-spot-in-each-eye/ https://visionaryeyecare.wordpress.com/2008/08/04/eye-test-f... ). It always seemed as if drug-induced hallucinations were less some kind of emergent or externally-imposed phenomenon and more of the drugs simply ratcheting up the misfire rate on normal systems of consciousness like face recognition, pattern recognition, piecing together incomplete information via extrapolation from memory, etc. Learning to recognize this kind of 'misfire' and label it as distinct from objective reality was enormously helpful to me when it occurred to my emotions later, because of bipolar disorder.
- icebraining 9y ago
  The Charles Bonnet syndrome is a good example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_release_hallucinations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_release_hallucinations
mercer 9y ago
Thank you for this comment! My problems are different from drug-induced hallucinations or schizophrenia, but I believe they are related. You (and OP) have put into words something I've been struggling with for much of my life: the feeling that I'm engaged in "double bookkeeping", and the experience that giving both 'realities' a degree of validity leads to a much better outcome than trying to deny-all one of them. Of course that leaves 'outcome' rather fuzzy, but somehow that's easier to accept and live with.

wellthen 9y ago

Well put, after a bit of reflection I mostly subscribe to the concept of several "approximate models" wherein "objective" truth lies somewhere inbetween. My own hallucinations were auditory and in the instances where they weren't random noises they only said my name, often in "plausible voices" (i.e. voices of people I had talked to recently or were nearby) and as such I don't ascribe much meaning to them. I can however see how other psychotic symptoms I've had followed the "approximation"-pattern -- had an incident where for about a day I was convinced my left arm weren't actually my arm and was most likely grafted on by aliens. In hindsight, this probably manifested this way at least partially because of fear of being different due to my diagnosis.

theoh 9y ago
I find the idea that "the map is not the territory" useful in considering delusional beliefs. It keeps belief and reality separate, where "belief" could include things you know to be hallucinations etc (though I've never had those). https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/The_map_is_not_the_territory https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/The_map_is_not_the_territory

cvsh 9y ago

>but they're not entirely so and seem to be capturing some patterns that my brain is picking up that I can't articulate through other mechanisms. Drugs made me more aware of how routinely our brains mildly hallucinate in ways that are designed to be imperceptible so as to 'smooth over' our perception of the world (i.e. our blind spots https://visionaryeyecare.wordpress.com/2008/08/04/eye-test-find-your-blind-spot-in-each-eye/ https://visionaryeyecare.wordpress.com/2008/08/04/eye-test-f... ). It always seemed as if drug-induced hallucinations were less some kind of emergent or externally-imposed phenomenon and more of the drugs simply ratcheting up the misfire rate on normal systems of consciousness like face recognition, pattern recognition, piecing together incomplete information via extrapolation from memory, etc. Learning to recognize this kind of 'misfire' and label it as distinct from objective reality was enormously helpful to me when it occurred to my emotions later, because of bipolar disorder.

icebraining 9y ago
The Charles Bonnet syndrome is a good example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_release_hallucinations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_release_hallucinations

mercer 9y ago

Thank you for this comment! My problems are different from drug-induced hallucinations or schizophrenia, but I believe they are related. You (and OP) have put into words something I've been struggling with for much of my life: the feeling that I'm engaged in "double bookkeeping", and the experience that giving both 'realities' a degree of validity leads to a much better outcome than trying to deny-all one of them. Of course that leaves 'outcome' rather fuzzy, but somehow that's easier to accept and live with.