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I would focus on something much easier - what was life, approximately, like for somebody in the exact 50th percentile of socioeconomic status. It even makes mor

I would focus on something much easier - what was life, approximately, like for somebody in the exact 50th percentile of socioeconomic status. It even makes more sense today. How has life changed for somebody in the 50th percentile in 2000 versus today? How has it changed for somebody in the 50th percentile in 1970 vs today? This focus on the lifestyle approximation also makes much more sense than even factors like inflation. For instance inflation today is ostensibly very low, with the Fed becoming increasingly aggressive with monetary policy to try to sustain it (deflation is not fun). Nonetheless, that doesn't really mesh well with the 50% who have seen many of the necessities of life (housing, education, healthcare, etc) inflate at rates vastly greater than the reported inflation rate. Quantification makes things seem much more scientific, but the key word there is seem. Without a strong 1:1 mapping of a quantification to what it implicitly represents, it becomes less than useless -- it becomes actively misleading. So for instance I think based on what I said above you might suggest I'm just referring to median personal income. Of course in nations where e.g. women do not work, median personal income would be incredibly misleading. So perhaps I am talking about median household income. Yet in countries where large numbers of poor individuals reside within a single household, again the value becomes meaningless. I do not think there is any singular consistent and clear way to compare wealth over time and circumstance, other than to compare an average approximation of a lifestyle. I think this thread is a good example of this. Many have mentioned that by many metrics today, the average person today is wealthier than a medieval king. Yet how many people would rather be an average individual today than a king of a medieval era? If people like the things that these metrics represent, the answer to that question should cohere with their measured increase today. In other words most people should prefer to be an average person today. I strongly suspect that is not the case.

fsloth 9y ago
"Yet how many people would rather be an average individual today than a king of a medieval era?" I presume you approach this from the vanity angle? Given the type of person who hungers after such vain glory I presume the persons who would like to be a medieval king, and who would choose to remain in such a role after trying it out is very small. I know, some prefer a challenge of violence and filth for it's own sake. The best thing one can say is that you can be drunk the entire time and no one will complain.
- indubitable 9y ago
  What is wealth? In my opinion at the most fundamental level it is just a representation of access to raw materials and especially to labor. Everything else is ultimately just a derivative of those. Being a king would provide a practically endless supply of both. That wealth enables you to have the resources to try to make the world a better place, and certainly to be able to enjoy all the world has to offer. Of course we have become vastly wealthier in some ways. Education in particular is something that has always been a product of wealth, and to this very day still is. Nonetheless, any individual with an internet connection now has access to what is, at least ostensibly, an MIT caliber education - for free. The lack of education is no doubt a part of the reason for why the peasants stayed peasants. But nonetheless, royalty of past times would of course have had access to the absolute best education available of the time. It's phenomenally interesting reading things like 'The King's Mirror' [1]. Various translations are available at the bottom. It was written in the 13th century intended as a childhood educational tool for a king. It's surreal considering that it was written about 800 years ago. Ultimately I think things like having a fluffier bed (to reference an anecdote from this thread) or access to electronic gadgetry is hardly a meaningful measurement of wealth. As you mention, if somebody wants to just live their life in pure hedonism now a days there are many ways to do so - much as in the past people could have just drunk themselves to death in the past (or present). But hedonism becomes rapidly unfulfilling. And it leaves us wanting to create, to produce. And wealth is what enables one to fulfill this most fundamental and intrinsic desire that's what brought us from primate to man. And the middle today are vastly far away from the middle of times past, yet simultaneously still vastly far from the elite of times past. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konungs_skuggsj%C3%A1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konungs_skuggsj%C3%A1
spiralx 9y ago
"Many have mentioned that by many metrics today, the average person today is wealthier than a medieval king. Yet how many people would rather be an average individual today than a king of a medieval era? If people like the things that these metrics represent, the answer to that question should cohere with their measured increase today. In other words most people should prefer to be an average person today. I strongly suspect that is not the case." I agree, because one thing these comparisons miss is that people judge almost everything relatively - there's research showing more people would choose to earn $20k amongst peers averaging $10k than earn $50k amongst peers earning $100k, even though on an absolute scale the latter would mean earning $30k more. Being king means being top of the pile, and that's a much bigger draw than shiny gadgets - many of which would be replaced by servants anyway - or modern health care - because nobody thinks they'll need it until they do.

fsloth 9y ago

"Yet how many people would rather be an average individual today than a king of a medieval era?" I presume you approach this from the vanity angle? Given the type of person who hungers after such vain glory I presume the persons who would like to be a medieval king, and who would choose to remain in such a role after trying it out is very small. I know, some prefer a challenge of violence and filth for it's own sake. The best thing one can say is that you can be drunk the entire time and no one will complain.

indubitable 9y ago
What is wealth? In my opinion at the most fundamental level it is just a representation of access to raw materials and especially to labor. Everything else is ultimately just a derivative of those. Being a king would provide a practically endless supply of both. That wealth enables you to have the resources to try to make the world a better place, and certainly to be able to enjoy all the world has to offer. Of course we have become vastly wealthier in some ways. Education in particular is something that has always been a product of wealth, and to this very day still is. Nonetheless, any individual with an internet connection now has access to what is, at least ostensibly, an MIT caliber education - for free. The lack of education is no doubt a part of the reason for why the peasants stayed peasants. But nonetheless, royalty of past times would of course have had access to the absolute best education available of the time. It's phenomenally interesting reading things like 'The King's Mirror' [1]. Various translations are available at the bottom. It was written in the 13th century intended as a childhood educational tool for a king. It's surreal considering that it was written about 800 years ago. Ultimately I think things like having a fluffier bed (to reference an anecdote from this thread) or access to electronic gadgetry is hardly a meaningful measurement of wealth. As you mention, if somebody wants to just live their life in pure hedonism now a days there are many ways to do so - much as in the past people could have just drunk themselves to death in the past (or present). But hedonism becomes rapidly unfulfilling. And it leaves us wanting to create, to produce. And wealth is what enables one to fulfill this most fundamental and intrinsic desire that's what brought us from primate to man. And the middle today are vastly far away from the middle of times past, yet simultaneously still vastly far from the elite of times past. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konungs_skuggsj%C3%A1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konungs_skuggsj%C3%A1

spiralx 9y ago

"Many have mentioned that by many metrics today, the average person today is wealthier than a medieval king. Yet how many people would rather be an average individual today than a king of a medieval era? If people like the things that these metrics represent, the answer to that question should cohere with their measured increase today. In other words most people should prefer to be an average person today. I strongly suspect that is not the case." I agree, because one thing these comparisons miss is that people judge almost everything relatively - there's research showing more people would choose to earn $20k amongst peers averaging $10k than earn $50k amongst peers earning $100k, even though on an absolute scale the latter would mean earning $30k more. Being king means being top of the pile, and that's a much bigger draw than shiny gadgets - many of which would be replaced by servants anyway - or modern health care - because nobody thinks they'll need it until they do.