5 ms·

Sceptical that this means that there were Muslim Vikings. Arabic script was commonly used throughout medieval Iberia as decoration, often without any meaningful

Sceptical that this means that there were Muslim Vikings. Arabic script was commonly used throughout medieval Iberia as decoration, often without any meaningful words, just Arabic letters strung together for aesthetic effect. Wouldn’t surprise me if something similar was going on here, where Iranian weavers were simply mass producing cloth for export with Ali and Allah embroidered as decoration. Keep in mind that Viking runes can be found inscribed in the walls of the Hagia Sophia. That doesn’t mean that the Vikings were Christian (or Muslim); it means that our stereotypes about the Middle Ages are totally invented by nineteenth century historians with their own nationalist agendas that didn’t allow for a cosmopolitan, globalized medieval Europe.

rflrob 9y ago
Not just lacking meaningful words—sometimes including designs clearly meant to look like Arabic, but not even real letterforms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-Kufic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-Kufic
peteretep 9y ago
> "We know from other Viking tomb > excavations that DNA analysis has > shown some of the people buried in > them originated from places like > Persia, where Islam was very dominant Which is also not proof-positive that there were Muslim Vikings, but as we know there were Persian Vikings, and as the name Allah appears as decoration, it does start to see pretty likely, no?
- flukus 9y ago
  > Persia, where Islam was very dominant Was that true at the time? They were certainly ruled by a caliphate, but other religions survive in Persia till this day so I wouldn't be surprised if the process took centuries. There also appears to be some repression of Persian people after. That Viking could of also been a refugee of the islamification process or the various power struggles in the region at the time.
  - ZenoArrow 9y ago
    > "but other religions survive in Persia till this day" Just to be clear, what is known as Persia is a subset of modern day Iran: http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/iranpersia http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/iranpersia Quick note about non-Islamic religions in Iran: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Iran https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Iran "The remaining 0.6% associate themselves with non-Islamic religious minorities, including Bahá'ís, Mandeans, Yarsanis, Zoroastrians, Jews, and Christians. The latter three minority religions are officially recognized and protected, and have reserved seats in the Iran parliament."
    - thaumasiotes 9y ago
      > what is known as Persia is a subset of modern day Iran Subset? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_Empire
      - ZenoArrow 9y ago
        Persia != Persian Empire. Just like Britain != British Empire, Rome != Roman Empire, etc...
  - kapnobatairza 9y ago
    The Islamic conquest of Iran happened in the late 7th century. The aforementioned remains were probably from the 9th/10th century. However, in that time there were still many Zoroastrians, Jews and Christians in Iran. I agree that the existence of Persian remains does not necessitate that there were Muslim vikings.
leyth 9y ago
Wow, talk about conjecture! If they found these artifacts in their graves, the closes thing to truth is that they were Muslims, nothing else.
- AmIFirstToThink 9y ago
  and that would explain all the raiding and pillaging and terrorizing done by Vikings. I don't think they thought this through. BBC, lol
  - sctb 9y ago
    We've banned this account. You've violated the guidelines like this before, but we can consider unbanning your account if you email us at hn@ycombinator.com and we believe it will never happen again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
lucaspiller 9y ago
Here in Lithuania (well the empire, so Poland and Belarus too) there were a large number of Muslim settlers who arrived in the 14th century. They were known for their military strength and were invited by Vytautas to aid in the efforts against the Christian Crusaders. If military prowess was as highly regarded as we believe to the Vikings, I wouldn’t be surprised if they did something similar too.
- chewz 9y ago
  Do you mean Lipka Tatars? Yes, they were (mostly) Muslims serving in the army of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and had been settled there. But not really that many of them - 2 thousand according to 2011 cenzus. Their villages (at least only those two remaining within in Polish border) still have mosques. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipka_Tatars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipka_Tatars
- int_19h 9y ago
  It's entirely possible that there were converts, as well. Many European cultures pre-Christianization had pretty broad-minded attitudes towards religion, and while the majority would adhere to the predominant pagan tradition, some individuals and families would sometimes convert to another religion when exposed to it. Especially given the rather pragmatic attitude towards religious worship among pagans at the time, choosing to honor and worship a god perceived as "stronger" for whatever reason would not be inconceivable - and the impressive early military successes of the Caliphate would be seen as testament to the strength of the god proclaimed on its banners... While we're at it, one of the founding myths about Christianization of Kievan Rus involves knyaz Vladimir holding a council on which faith to convert to, and inviting preachers to compete - supposedly, Latin and Greek rites of Christianity, Islam (via Volga Bulgars), and Judaism (via Khazars) were all on the table. According to the legend, Islam was rejected first, solely on account of banning alcohol. Judaism was reviewed and rejected next, because the loss of Jerusalem and destruction of the Temple was seen as a clear sign of divine weakness by the pagan Rus. Finally, between the Greek and the Latin rites of Christianity, they picked Greek, because Greek churches and priests were decorated much more lavishly (with lots of prominently displayed gold etc), while Latin ones were more subdued. While it's almost certainly a legend that does not correspond to an actual event, its very premise speaks volumes about how religion was viewed in that time period.
Grustaf 9y ago
Since there most definitely were Christian Vikings even in the early days (later they were all Christian), it seems quite probable that some would have also converted to Islam. But I agree that embroidered pieces of cloth doesn't really say much at all. It's also pretty strange that the article seems to say that Vikings got the idea for an eternal life after death from Islam. First of all there are very similar ideas in Norse Paganism (cognate to Greek and Roman Paganism), even if it's not in paradise. Secondly the idea also exists in Christianity, and by the 9th century most of Europe, and many Vikings, were of course Christian.

rflrob 9y ago

Not just lacking meaningful words—sometimes including designs clearly meant to look like Arabic, but not even real letterforms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-Kufic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-Kufic

peteretep 9y ago

> "We know from other Viking tomb > excavations that DNA analysis has > shown some of the people buried in > them originated from places like > Persia, where Islam was very dominant Which is also not proof-positive that there were Muslim Vikings, but as we know there were Persian Vikings, and as the name Allah appears as decoration, it does start to see pretty likely, no?

flukus 9y ago
> Persia, where Islam was very dominant Was that true at the time? They were certainly ruled by a caliphate, but other religions survive in Persia till this day so I wouldn't be surprised if the process took centuries. There also appears to be some repression of Persian people after. That Viking could of also been a refugee of the islamification process or the various power struggles in the region at the time.
- ZenoArrow 9y ago
  > "but other religions survive in Persia till this day" Just to be clear, what is known as Persia is a subset of modern day Iran: http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/iranpersia http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/iranpersia Quick note about non-Islamic religions in Iran: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Iran https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Iran "The remaining 0.6% associate themselves with non-Islamic religious minorities, including Bahá'ís, Mandeans, Yarsanis, Zoroastrians, Jews, and Christians. The latter three minority religions are officially recognized and protected, and have reserved seats in the Iran parliament."
  - thaumasiotes 9y ago
    > what is known as Persia is a subset of modern day Iran Subset? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_Empire
    - ZenoArrow 9y ago
      Persia != Persian Empire. Just like Britain != British Empire, Rome != Roman Empire, etc...
- kapnobatairza 9y ago
  The Islamic conquest of Iran happened in the late 7th century. The aforementioned remains were probably from the 9th/10th century. However, in that time there were still many Zoroastrians, Jews and Christians in Iran. I agree that the existence of Persian remains does not necessitate that there were Muslim vikings.

leyth 9y ago

Wow, talk about conjecture! If they found these artifacts in their graves, the closes thing to truth is that they were Muslims, nothing else.

AmIFirstToThink 9y ago
and that would explain all the raiding and pillaging and terrorizing done by Vikings. I don't think they thought this through. BBC, lol
- sctb 9y ago
  We've banned this account. You've violated the guidelines like this before, but we can consider unbanning your account if you email us at hn@ycombinator.com and we believe it will never happen again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

lucaspiller 9y ago

Here in Lithuania (well the empire, so Poland and Belarus too) there were a large number of Muslim settlers who arrived in the 14th century. They were known for their military strength and were invited by Vytautas to aid in the efforts against the Christian Crusaders. If military prowess was as highly regarded as we believe to the Vikings, I wouldn’t be surprised if they did something similar too.

chewz 9y ago
Do you mean Lipka Tatars? Yes, they were (mostly) Muslims serving in the army of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and had been settled there. But not really that many of them - 2 thousand according to 2011 cenzus. Their villages (at least only those two remaining within in Polish border) still have mosques. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipka_Tatars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipka_Tatars
int_19h 9y ago
It's entirely possible that there were converts, as well. Many European cultures pre-Christianization had pretty broad-minded attitudes towards religion, and while the majority would adhere to the predominant pagan tradition, some individuals and families would sometimes convert to another religion when exposed to it. Especially given the rather pragmatic attitude towards religious worship among pagans at the time, choosing to honor and worship a god perceived as "stronger" for whatever reason would not be inconceivable - and the impressive early military successes of the Caliphate would be seen as testament to the strength of the god proclaimed on its banners... While we're at it, one of the founding myths about Christianization of Kievan Rus involves knyaz Vladimir holding a council on which faith to convert to, and inviting preachers to compete - supposedly, Latin and Greek rites of Christianity, Islam (via Volga Bulgars), and Judaism (via Khazars) were all on the table. According to the legend, Islam was rejected first, solely on account of banning alcohol. Judaism was reviewed and rejected next, because the loss of Jerusalem and destruction of the Temple was seen as a clear sign of divine weakness by the pagan Rus. Finally, between the Greek and the Latin rites of Christianity, they picked Greek, because Greek churches and priests were decorated much more lavishly (with lots of prominently displayed gold etc), while Latin ones were more subdued. While it's almost certainly a legend that does not correspond to an actual event, its very premise speaks volumes about how religion was viewed in that time period.

Grustaf 9y ago

Since there most definitely were Christian Vikings even in the early days (later they were all Christian), it seems quite probable that some would have also converted to Islam. But I agree that embroidered pieces of cloth doesn't really say much at all. It's also pretty strange that the article seems to say that Vikings got the idea for an eternal life after death from Islam. First of all there are very similar ideas in Norse Paganism (cognate to Greek and Roman Paganism), even if it's not in paradise. Secondly the idea also exists in Christianity, and by the 9th century most of Europe, and many Vikings, were of course Christian.