4 ms·

What is it that Boy Scouts teaches that you don't think girls should be taught?

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
It's not that I don't think girls shouldn't be taught certain information, but it's rather a mindset that is taught. A group of boys being led by men can learn a mindset better suited for the mind of a man. With their greater testosterone, men have much more aggression an desire for status overall than women, and with guidance by a father figure, can learn to harness and focus that energy in a way a woman wouldn't be able to. I worry that in the pursuit of inclusion, that kind of mindset implanting will be lost.
- alehul 9y ago
  I agree with you on a scientific level, for example, that men have more testosterone and thus are more likely to be aggressive in their pursuits, which is often critical to success. At the same time, however, there are many men who are less aggressive and women who are more aggressive; broad averages aren't the perfect solution. Couldn't we promote this 'aggressive' ideology as genderless? As long as we're clear about the Boy Scouts' ideal member (aggressive), nothing will be disrupted, as only boys and girls who fit and enjoy that environment will choose to join.
  - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
    > Couldn't we promote this 'aggressive' ideology as genderless? In an ideal world that might work, but it seems like everywhere that makes gender inclusivity a priority always ends up losing its masculine traits. I just don't see why there can't be some boys-only organizations and girls-only organizations anymore.
    - alehul 9y ago
      I understand the plight and I think that has certainly occurred in some instances, however, in reaching the ideal, the importance seems to be inclusiveness yet straightforwardness in purpose. We should aim to promote gender inclusivity, but not stigmatize traditional gender mindsets, i.e. 'aggressiveness', as negative in the process. If an institution starts accepting females and then (oftentimes purposely) loses that common mindset, it simply reinforces gender stereotypes.
      - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
        > it simply reinforces gender stereotypes I have a serious question, and this arises from my mentality that we should be accepting of aberrations from the norm, but that doesn't mean we should hurt the majority in the process. Why are gender stereotypes bad? If we understand that men and women are different overall, and that those differences lead to a bimodal distribution with gender traits something like this[1], then wouldn't stereotypes naturally emerge? Should we be punishing behavior that large chunks of people align to? [1] https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YMOXSZ4aTmg/Vwf79cRcjOI/AAAAAAAAORg/KdIWYI__SqUFj7zjELQqvv_PncqvzNWGA/s1600/bimodal.png https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YMOXSZ4aTmg/Vwf79cRcjOI/AAAAAAAAO...
        kd5bjo 9y ago
        Gender stereotypes, when applied to individuals instead of large populations, severely punish anyone that falls on the "wrong" side of the median.
        maruhan2 9y ago
        Yup I agree with this. People who are not in the norm will struggle moving forward because they'll always be judged by the cover. There's also the non-scientific stereotypes. "Girls are worse at math" for example.
        alehul 9y ago
        I agree with that mentality! In regards to gender stereotypes: children are very impressionable, and we should encourage the ideology that people of either gender can have any combination of personality traits, interests, and so on. If gender stereotypes are naturally disassembled to an extent, I think the world would be a somewhat better place. The only point of contention I have is when people begin to associate the personalities involved in gender stereotypes with the negative connotation of gender stereotypes, and thus discourage those personalities. We shouldn't try to remove all gender stereotypes with punishment, as you said; some are natural. We should just aim to remove restrictions on personalities as much as possible, and see what the effects are.
  - photojosh 9y ago
    This is the right answer. The GP comment made me angry with its absolute generalisation about "the mind of a man." Being a non-aggresive guy sucked growing up when you get bullied for not meeting this gender stereotype for males. I also really enjoy outdoor adventuring, like many of the activities provided by Scouts. Is it because I'm aggressive? No, it's because I enjoy the calm and serenity that the outdoors provides.
- belorn 9y ago
  Testosterone is not that simplistic that you can infer aggressiveness based on it. Take a group of men (or boys) and sort them based on aggressive behavior, and then measure testosterone, and the later will be very a poor predictor for the first. For example people have tried to "treat" crime by chemically castrate violent criminal, but it did not work. Researchers expected an increase in testosterone levels to inevitably lead to more aggression, and this didn't reliably occur. Only at levels far above normal variance (roid rage) can such effect be measure, and you need either a medical condition or injections to have that occur. Research about testosterone and aggression indicates that there's only a weak connection between the two, and when aggression is more narrowly defined as simple physical violence the connection all but disappears. In fact, in a study of men castrated to calm them down, nine out of sixteen died as a result of aggressive encounters. Testosterone does have an effect on inter-sex competition, such as tendency to seek social rank and dominance. If one consider a function of testosterone is reproduction, this make sense. A high social ranked male in say a baboon group will have better reproductive success than other males, but a indiscriminate violent male won't. Interestingly, testosterone also increase after gaining ranks (such as winning contest), implying that the body is "telling" itself that it should focus more on reproduction because of the new increased chance. A group of boys will compete for social ranking, but so will girls. If school yards has anything to show it is that kids of both gender need to learn to harness and focus that energy into cooperation and self-improvement.
guitarbill 9y ago
Maybe it isn't about what's being taught, but acknowledging that boys will behave differently when girls are present. So then an environment where no girls are present can be an opportunity to engage with teenage boys in a different context, which I do think is important to provide some kind of mentorship or guidance that isn't possible in a mixed environment. There aren't many situations where this is still the case, and getting rid of all such opportunities for the sake of inclusivity might be missing the point, and do more damage than good.
- acty1 9y ago
  Yes, thank you. Boys behave differently around girls and will form weaker bonds with each other. Boys grow up to be providers and need to be pushed hard because life is hard on them. Men's income forms the largest tax base. The average man provides a net positive return on tax base whereas women a net negative in North America. Men are disproportionately representing in: - Wars, army (98%) - Suicides - Occupational death and injury - On average tend to work longer hours - Die many years younger lofe expectancy - Hard, but important jobs like coal mining, drilling, construction, etc) There are almost as many rapes of boys and men as there are girls and women each year. I dare you to dig through and find the stata yourself and when you understand why these stats are buried, you will start to see what we have been tricked into.

It's not that I don't think girls shouldn't be taught certain information, but it's rather a mindset that is taught. A group of boys being led by men can learn a mindset better suited for the mind of a man. With their greater testosterone, men have much more aggression an desire for status overall than women, and with guidance by a father figure, can learn to harness and focus that energy in a way a woman wouldn't be able to. I worry that in the pursuit of inclusion, that kind of mindset implanting will be lost.

alehul 9y ago
I agree with you on a scientific level, for example, that men have more testosterone and thus are more likely to be aggressive in their pursuits, which is often critical to success. At the same time, however, there are many men who are less aggressive and women who are more aggressive; broad averages aren't the perfect solution. Couldn't we promote this 'aggressive' ideology as genderless? As long as we're clear about the Boy Scouts' ideal member (aggressive), nothing will be disrupted, as only boys and girls who fit and enjoy that environment will choose to join.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  > Couldn't we promote this 'aggressive' ideology as genderless? In an ideal world that might work, but it seems like everywhere that makes gender inclusivity a priority always ends up losing its masculine traits. I just don't see why there can't be some boys-only organizations and girls-only organizations anymore.
  - alehul 9y ago
    I understand the plight and I think that has certainly occurred in some instances, however, in reaching the ideal, the importance seems to be inclusiveness yet straightforwardness in purpose. We should aim to promote gender inclusivity, but not stigmatize traditional gender mindsets, i.e. 'aggressiveness', as negative in the process. If an institution starts accepting females and then (oftentimes purposely) loses that common mindset, it simply reinforces gender stereotypes.
    - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
      > it simply reinforces gender stereotypes I have a serious question, and this arises from my mentality that we should be accepting of aberrations from the norm, but that doesn't mean we should hurt the majority in the process. Why are gender stereotypes bad? If we understand that men and women are different overall, and that those differences lead to a bimodal distribution with gender traits something like this[1], then wouldn't stereotypes naturally emerge? Should we be punishing behavior that large chunks of people align to? [1] https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YMOXSZ4aTmg/Vwf79cRcjOI/AAAAAAAAORg/KdIWYI__SqUFj7zjELQqvv_PncqvzNWGA/s1600/bimodal.png https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YMOXSZ4aTmg/Vwf79cRcjOI/AAAAAAAAO...
      - kd5bjo 9y ago
        Gender stereotypes, when applied to individuals instead of large populations, severely punish anyone that falls on the "wrong" side of the median.
        maruhan2 9y ago
        Yup I agree with this. People who are not in the norm will struggle moving forward because they'll always be judged by the cover. There's also the non-scientific stereotypes. "Girls are worse at math" for example.
      - alehul 9y ago
        I agree with that mentality! In regards to gender stereotypes: children are very impressionable, and we should encourage the ideology that people of either gender can have any combination of personality traits, interests, and so on. If gender stereotypes are naturally disassembled to an extent, I think the world would be a somewhat better place. The only point of contention I have is when people begin to associate the personalities involved in gender stereotypes with the negative connotation of gender stereotypes, and thus discourage those personalities. We shouldn't try to remove all gender stereotypes with punishment, as you said; some are natural. We should just aim to remove restrictions on personalities as much as possible, and see what the effects are.
- photojosh 9y ago
  This is the right answer. The GP comment made me angry with its absolute generalisation about "the mind of a man." Being a non-aggresive guy sucked growing up when you get bullied for not meeting this gender stereotype for males. I also really enjoy outdoor adventuring, like many of the activities provided by Scouts. Is it because I'm aggressive? No, it's because I enjoy the calm and serenity that the outdoors provides.
belorn 9y ago
Testosterone is not that simplistic that you can infer aggressiveness based on it. Take a group of men (or boys) and sort them based on aggressive behavior, and then measure testosterone, and the later will be very a poor predictor for the first. For example people have tried to "treat" crime by chemically castrate violent criminal, but it did not work. Researchers expected an increase in testosterone levels to inevitably lead to more aggression, and this didn't reliably occur. Only at levels far above normal variance (roid rage) can such effect be measure, and you need either a medical condition or injections to have that occur. Research about testosterone and aggression indicates that there's only a weak connection between the two, and when aggression is more narrowly defined as simple physical violence the connection all but disappears. In fact, in a study of men castrated to calm them down, nine out of sixteen died as a result of aggressive encounters. Testosterone does have an effect on inter-sex competition, such as tendency to seek social rank and dominance. If one consider a function of testosterone is reproduction, this make sense. A high social ranked male in say a baboon group will have better reproductive success than other males, but a indiscriminate violent male won't. Interestingly, testosterone also increase after gaining ranks (such as winning contest), implying that the body is "telling" itself that it should focus more on reproduction because of the new increased chance. A group of boys will compete for social ranking, but so will girls. If school yards has anything to show it is that kids of both gender need to learn to harness and focus that energy into cooperation and self-improvement.

guitarbill 9y ago

Maybe it isn't about what's being taught, but acknowledging that boys will behave differently when girls are present. So then an environment where no girls are present can be an opportunity to engage with teenage boys in a different context, which I do think is important to provide some kind of mentorship or guidance that isn't possible in a mixed environment. There aren't many situations where this is still the case, and getting rid of all such opportunities for the sake of inclusivity might be missing the point, and do more damage than good.

acty1 9y ago
Yes, thank you. Boys behave differently around girls and will form weaker bonds with each other. Boys grow up to be providers and need to be pushed hard because life is hard on them. Men's income forms the largest tax base. The average man provides a net positive return on tax base whereas women a net negative in North America. Men are disproportionately representing in: - Wars, army (98%) - Suicides - Occupational death and injury - On average tend to work longer hours - Die many years younger lofe expectancy - Hard, but important jobs like coal mining, drilling, construction, etc) There are almost as many rapes of boys and men as there are girls and women each year. I dare you to dig through and find the stata yourself and when you understand why these stats are buried, you will start to see what we have been tricked into.