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This is an almost absurd criticism ("be careful telling people to sleep, people I know who were depressed followed that advice and slept for 12-14 hours every d

This is an almost absurd criticism ("be careful telling people to sleep, people I know who were depressed followed that advice and slept for 12-14 hours every day"). Let's fix it by being more specific, so we don't accidentally cause any more problems: "daily moderate-intensity cardiovascular exercise" (or, if you prefer, "resistance training 3x week"). Or even, "a healthy level of exercise". I agree that therapy is a good idea, but you shouldn't need a therapist to figure this one out. A reasonable amount of exercise is good for pretty much everyone.

Mz 9y ago
I don't think it is absurd. I have a genetic disorder. All of the standard diet and exercise advice failed me in every metric until I had a proper diagnosis. Lots of people have unidentified health issues. Underlying health issues can cause low energy, which can be mistaken for depression.
jlg23 9y ago
> This is an almost absurd criticism. [...] A reasonable amount of exercise is good for pretty much everyone. "Ok, if you say so" and "of course". But the general advice to do some exercises and the advice to exercise "to counter depression" are two completely different things. I'm trying to be as neutral as possible here: If a friend of yours needs help, please don't tell them that they "shouldn't need a therapist to figure [out a way out]". Psychology ain't an exact science even though most "science journalism" wants you make to believe that. So, whatever "wisdom" one picks up, treat it with a grain^Wbag of salt. EDIT: parent was edited the substantially & while my principal response still holds, I would not even have responded to a response as hyperbolic as the parent is now.
johnny99 9y ago
Sometimes you need a therapist and/or meds to figure out that you need to (or even can) figure it out, and it's possible to overdo just about anything, certainly including exercise and sleep. Depression puts you at the bottom of a well, and by definition not thinking clearly. You're dangerously close to telling people to just deal with it on their own, which is harmful and cold.
- Nav_Panel 9y ago
  Certainly. I have been in the position before where I was at the bottom of my own personal pit and was unable to begin exercising on my own (severely depressed and obese, not a great combination to begin an exercise program). It's not an easy thing to get started doing _anything_ when you're depressed, habits are hard to change. People shouldn't be expected to change these things (purely) on their own, as a lot is a function of environment/genetics/overall life situation, but... I can recall clearly what it would have been like (for me personally at least) were I in a strongly depressive state: I'd read the comment warning me about exercise, then I'd be afraid to exercise at all. By framing exercise as a risky behavior based on a few exceptional anecdotes, the poster does depressed readers a disservice. It's relatively established that depressed people are more risk averse in general[1][2], and exercise also has well established benefits in treating symptoms of depression (I shouldn't have to cite sources for this one). The benefits far outweigh the risks. 1: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2590786/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2590786/ 2: https://www.nesda.nl/nesda/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Wiersma_JClinPsych_2011.pdf https://www.nesda.nl/nesda/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Wiersm...
  - eradicatethots 9y ago
    No need to treat depressed people like children and withhold info about risks. They’re still humans after all.
    - sooheon 9y ago
      I believe you misunderstood the point. The problem is that the "risks" of exercise are blown out of proportion.
pheldagryph 9y ago
I didn't read the criticism that way; seemed like a warning against "one size fits all" thinking when dealing with a complex system like a human brain. Maybe you are both right!
pgeorgi 9y ago
> you shouldn't need a therapist to figure this one out. A reasonable amount of exercise is good for pretty much everyone. People with clinical depression aren't those who _can_ easily hit the gym for that dopamine rush. "Some sport is usually not a bad idea" is not the hard part, getting to the point where it can be implemented is. And if that is the problem, and none of the pep talks on hacker news over the last few years helped, why not try the therapist?
- projektir 9y ago
  > People with clinical depression aren't those who _can_ easily hit the gym for that dopamine rush. This is not accurate, depression is just not clear cut like that. A depressed person can be fully high-functioning from the outside, even... Quite a few people don't exercise for other reasons (time, aversion), in fact, I'd say those are all much more likely reasons than depression, but may also lead to depression.
  - rrix2 9y ago
    It's almost like there's not a single good answer like saying "all ya gotta do is go out there and buck up and excercise!!". Like any sickness, you talk to a health professional and figure out what treatments work. Going your own sucks and is a bad time regardless of how highly-functioning you are.
- sooheon 9y ago
  I understand where you're coming from, but I'll just point out that you can reverse the activities and make the same point: "People with depression aren't those who can easily just hit up a therapist and continue going and get well. If that's too much of a social burden, why not try just going for a bike ride?"
  - pgeorgi 9y ago
    keywords: "And if [getting sports implemented] is the problem" I never said not to do sports (neither did the article: it merely pointed out that telling people to "_just_ do sports" may not be helpful) and I never tried to sell a silver bullet. This is unlike the inevitable influx of comments in the style of "ignore therapy, just imitate my sports routine, and if you can't, just try harder". Those appear under _every_ depression-related submission on hacker news. Those comments are harmful: therapy already comes with stigma, so it's not the obvious route - unlike, as you can see here, sports. Everybody proposes sports, healthy eating habits and regular sleep (btw: what about the depressed who can easily sleep 20 hours a day, should they just get one more nap?). Reinforcing the stigma around therapy discourages folks from taking a route that might help them. The "just try harder" angle that's all too often seen in such comments is also harmful: What do you think did those people do (often for years) before they consciously consider that something might be wrong with them? Exactly: they buckled up and tried harder - and they will continue until they crack unless something changes fundamentally.
BeetleB 9y ago
I agree it was phrased poorly. What I took him to mean is: If you have depression, and regular exercise and good diet doesn't help you, look for other solutions. Too many people assume that getting the right balance of both will solve the problem, so they keep tweaking and tweaking the wrong solution.
steauengeglase 9y ago
Agreed. Not to mention hitting the gym for an hour every night closes a lot of access to self-medication.

Mz 9y ago

I don't think it is absurd. I have a genetic disorder. All of the standard diet and exercise advice failed me in every metric until I had a proper diagnosis. Lots of people have unidentified health issues. Underlying health issues can cause low energy, which can be mistaken for depression.

jlg23 9y ago

> This is an almost absurd criticism. [...] A reasonable amount of exercise is good for pretty much everyone. "Ok, if you say so" and "of course". But the general advice to do some exercises and the advice to exercise "to counter depression" are two completely different things. I'm trying to be as neutral as possible here: If a friend of yours needs help, please don't tell them that they "shouldn't need a therapist to figure [out a way out]". Psychology ain't an exact science even though most "science journalism" wants you make to believe that. So, whatever "wisdom" one picks up, treat it with a grain^Wbag of salt. EDIT: parent was edited the substantially & while my principal response still holds, I would not even have responded to a response as hyperbolic as the parent is now.

johnny99 9y ago

Sometimes you need a therapist and/or meds to figure out that you need to (or even can) figure it out, and it's possible to overdo just about anything, certainly including exercise and sleep. Depression puts you at the bottom of a well, and by definition not thinking clearly. You're dangerously close to telling people to just deal with it on their own, which is harmful and cold.

Nav_Panel 9y ago
Certainly. I have been in the position before where I was at the bottom of my own personal pit and was unable to begin exercising on my own (severely depressed and obese, not a great combination to begin an exercise program). It's not an easy thing to get started doing _anything_ when you're depressed, habits are hard to change. People shouldn't be expected to change these things (purely) on their own, as a lot is a function of environment/genetics/overall life situation, but... I can recall clearly what it would have been like (for me personally at least) were I in a strongly depressive state: I'd read the comment warning me about exercise, then I'd be afraid to exercise at all. By framing exercise as a risky behavior based on a few exceptional anecdotes, the poster does depressed readers a disservice. It's relatively established that depressed people are more risk averse in general[1][2], and exercise also has well established benefits in treating symptoms of depression (I shouldn't have to cite sources for this one). The benefits far outweigh the risks. 1: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2590786/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2590786/ 2: https://www.nesda.nl/nesda/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Wiersma_JClinPsych_2011.pdf https://www.nesda.nl/nesda/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Wiersm...
- eradicatethots 9y ago
  No need to treat depressed people like children and withhold info about risks. They’re still humans after all.
  - sooheon 9y ago
    I believe you misunderstood the point. The problem is that the "risks" of exercise are blown out of proportion.

pheldagryph 9y ago

I didn't read the criticism that way; seemed like a warning against "one size fits all" thinking when dealing with a complex system like a human brain. Maybe you are both right!

pgeorgi 9y ago

> you shouldn't need a therapist to figure this one out. A reasonable amount of exercise is good for pretty much everyone. People with clinical depression aren't those who _can_ easily hit the gym for that dopamine rush. "Some sport is usually not a bad idea" is not the hard part, getting to the point where it can be implemented is. And if that is the problem, and none of the pep talks on hacker news over the last few years helped, why not try the therapist?

projektir 9y ago
> People with clinical depression aren't those who _can_ easily hit the gym for that dopamine rush. This is not accurate, depression is just not clear cut like that. A depressed person can be fully high-functioning from the outside, even... Quite a few people don't exercise for other reasons (time, aversion), in fact, I'd say those are all much more likely reasons than depression, but may also lead to depression.
- rrix2 9y ago
  It's almost like there's not a single good answer like saying "all ya gotta do is go out there and buck up and excercise!!". Like any sickness, you talk to a health professional and figure out what treatments work. Going your own sucks and is a bad time regardless of how highly-functioning you are.
sooheon 9y ago
I understand where you're coming from, but I'll just point out that you can reverse the activities and make the same point: "People with depression aren't those who can easily just hit up a therapist and continue going and get well. If that's too much of a social burden, why not try just going for a bike ride?"
- pgeorgi 9y ago
  keywords: "And if [getting sports implemented] is the problem" I never said not to do sports (neither did the article: it merely pointed out that telling people to "_just_ do sports" may not be helpful) and I never tried to sell a silver bullet. This is unlike the inevitable influx of comments in the style of "ignore therapy, just imitate my sports routine, and if you can't, just try harder". Those appear under _every_ depression-related submission on hacker news. Those comments are harmful: therapy already comes with stigma, so it's not the obvious route - unlike, as you can see here, sports. Everybody proposes sports, healthy eating habits and regular sleep (btw: what about the depressed who can easily sleep 20 hours a day, should they just get one more nap?). Reinforcing the stigma around therapy discourages folks from taking a route that might help them. The "just try harder" angle that's all too often seen in such comments is also harmful: What do you think did those people do (often for years) before they consciously consider that something might be wrong with them? Exactly: they buckled up and tried harder - and they will continue until they crack unless something changes fundamentally.

BeetleB 9y ago

I agree it was phrased poorly. What I took him to mean is: If you have depression, and regular exercise and good diet doesn't help you, look for other solutions. Too many people assume that getting the right balance of both will solve the problem, so they keep tweaking and tweaking the wrong solution.

steauengeglase 9y ago

Agreed. Not to mention hitting the gym for an hour every night closes a lot of access to self-medication.