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Boy Scouts Announce They Will Accept Girls

41 points by votepaunchy 9y ago

bigmanwalter 9y ago
Finally catching up with the rest of the world. As a child in Canada, I was a member of the local Scout troupe which had quite a few girls in it. Definitely made for a better, more balanced experience. We would make fun of the American troupes who weren't allowed to have any girls in them. Made no sense why not.
- cr0sh 9y ago
  > As a child in Canada...Made no sense why not. That's pretty much the answer right there. Something you have to understand about the BSA is just how deeply enmeshed religion - specifically Christianity (with a heavy leaning toward Protestantism) - is within the organization. One of the largest (if not the largest) chapters (?) of the BSA is run by the Mormon church (LDS), for instance. This is a nice step forward, and certainly unexpected, but they have more yet to go. For instance, the Girl Scouts allow transgendered individuals to join; I guess we'll see if the BSA ever allows that. Also - despite what another poster said earlier - the BSA is not friendly to atheists, whether they are children, parents of children, or as leaders. There are plenty of fairly recent incidents and announcements about that, just within the past couple of years, to attest to that stance.
smileysteve 9y ago
Weird, because my Scout leader led adventure scouts; http://adventurescoutsusa.org/ http://adventurescoutsusa.org/
Clubber 9y ago
I think that's a pretty good idea. Our daughter joined the Girl Scouts for two years and all she got out of it was to be free child labor for cookie manufacturers. Apparently the troop leader did something fishy with the cookie money and even though they met their goal, they didn't get the reward. We still have boxes of the stuff in our pantry. I was a Weeblo (Boy Scouts) as a kid and didn't get much out of it other than classroom learning, but it was better than selling cookies. I got bored after a few months and didn't go back. Like any nationwide organization, the quality is determined by the locality support. I guess they will have to change their name from The Boy Scouts if enough girls show interest.
MR4D 9y ago
This is sad. Not that they accept girls, but that the Girl Scouts apparently suck so much at understanding their audience. Fallout from this would probably result in either 1) the Girl Scouts becoming much better at satisfying their target audience or 2) the Girl Scouts essentially becoming an irrelevant organization. I hope the first, but the latter looks more likely. They’ve hidden behind cookie sales for years, and outside that, I can’t tell you one thing that they do.
- squidbot 9y ago
  Girl Scouts is actually a terrific organization in a lot of ways, one thing it's not great at is marketing and leadership support. On top of that We are a family of scouts and scout leaders, and my wife and I both did leadership for our daughters Girl Scout troop. I am also a leader in my sons Cub Scout pack. Girl Scouts has been fundamentally more inclusive and secular than Boy Scouts. A scout is just a scout in Girl Scouts, no matter their gender or religious identity. The program for the girls has adapted well over time and has some great educational components across all types of activities. There is a real focus on getting the girls inspired by STEM. Our local council sponsored and provided materials and funds for First Lego League, and several troops went on to state finals. They hold science fairs, have great camp grounds (and summer camps) and have fantastic outdoor education from both an environmental and sports/leisure aspect. Unfortunately, they also lack funds, so most of the support goes to the girls. Finding and maintaining good adult leaders and volunteers has become increasingly difficult, and adult leadership is what really makes for a good Girl Scout experience, especially when the girls are younger. And the fewer good leaders, the fewer girls who participate, and as a result fewer funds for the organization so spread around. I was in a "scouting family" when I was a kid, and the level of engagement of the adults back then was much better than today. For whatever reason people are "too busy" these to volunteer for something that benefits their kids, and often seem to want to use scouts as baby sitting :( Also, I understand your sentiment on the cookies, but a surprising amount of the money goes back to the troop and to the girls in the form of rewards and scholarships. In our troop we had several girls who were super motivated to sell as it was the only way for their families to afford summer camp (you'd get if I remember correctly, 10% of your sales as money towards camp) and most of these girls would hustle enough to make all they needed to fully fund camp, which was $300-400. Yeah there's some profit for the cookie company, but I think it's something like 50% goes back to Girl Scouts (the org, the troop and the individual girls.)
acty1 9y ago
Disappointing. Another example of women and girls limiting the opportunities for men to build strong positive masculine identities. With the "women's only fitness" to other women's only clubs.... we are turning this into a twisted future where womem are the only ones allowed to have groups that are gender discriminatory.
SOLAR_FIELDS 9y ago
Putting aside the context of whether this makes sense with the existence of Girl Scouts, as an Eagle Scout I’m pretty happy that the organization has made strides to turn around its image of exclusivity. It’s certainly about 15 years later than it needed to be, but such a huge organization that is dedicated to inspiring ideals in young people should be sending the right message. It’s a far cry from the early 2000’s era Boy Scouts which was projecting a much different message. I’m quite ambivalent about the organization’s attitude toward religion, in that it is impossible to be an outspoken atheist and reach the rank of Eagle Scout. To reach the highest rank you must undergo an Eagle board of review, which is an interview of sorts with highly ranked regional council members. During mine, I was asked questions that were mostly formalities until the final question: “Do you believe in a higher power?” When given context to the question, it made a bit more sense: I was told the higher power could be anything, like the Mother Nature or karma. It was then that I understood that the question, however poorly worded, isn’t meant to really be around religion, but instead letting go of your ego. There are much better ways to ask that sort of question though, and being atheist and letting go of your ego are not two mutually exclusive properties. I was agnostic at the time so it was easy for me, but I still question the approach now even though it wasn’t the WASP-like approach I expected.
- craftkiller 9y ago
  Make no mistake, they were asking if you believed in "God". The BSA prohibits atheists / agnostics [1] My troop told me to lie. I chose to not participate. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20080509074048/http://www.bsalegal.org/duty-to-god-cases-224.asp https://web.archive.org/web/20080509074048/http://www.bsaleg...
  - ajhurliman 9y ago
    Literally any belief system as long as it's not atheist/ agnostic. It just blows my mind that people draw the line there.
  - SOLAR_FIELDS 9y ago
    Interesting about agnosticism. I didnt specifically process as an agnostic and I was not directly asked the question. The simple question was “Do you believe in a higher power” and no more detail was requested upon my initial answer of “yes”. I imagine if I had elaborated the answe night not have been to the liking of the reviewers.
ntuch 9y ago
What if it turns out that there is a deep-seated psychological need present in many (NOT ALL) humans to participate in peer groups defined along lines of gender - and what if it turns out that if society denies them acceptable outlets for this need, that they fill the need by joining socially unacceptable groups (ie. gangs)? If we suspect that this psychological need is present, do we persist in denying acceptable outlets for it?
- Waterluvian 9y ago
  So in fewer words you're asking, "what if by allowing girls into scouts, boy scouts will be driven to join gangs?"
  - tenaciousDaniel 9y ago
    Gangs may not be the best example, but your interpretation is a mangled version of what op actually said. Clearly we don't know the long term ramifications of these changes. And we're sprinting towards these changes at high speed and acting like we know everything we need to know about gender. We don't. We don't know whether it's merely a social construction or something deeper. And if it turns out to be something deeper, then we run the risk of fucking up a generation of kids.
  - pretendscholar 9y ago
    You should be charitable with the way you interpret what people say. That person probably meant "e.g. gangs." I find it frustrating how combative people are when discussing anything on the fringes of what is socially acceptable to say.
  - ntuch 9y ago
    That was a poor attempt at argument by ridicule. You didn't actually address anything I said.
mathiasben 9y ago
Just merge the two organizations and call it "scouting" - solved
- DannyB2 9y ago
  Rather than merge the organizations, have the Girl Scouts start accepting Boys.
  - acty1 9y ago
    This. Make no mistake here. This has nothing to do with giving "equal opportunity" of activities to all. But a way of suppressing healthy masculine development. The girl scouts will never accept boys and probably cite some bogus reason due to "safety from icky boys" as the reason. There is nothing wrong with having groups for people based on ethnic background (Black Lives Matter, etc), gender or religiosity. Having girls join the Boy Scouts was a massive shit test, and they failed it.
DoubleCribble 9y ago
I knew the BSA was on a mission to become more inclusive due to declining membership but I didn't see this one coming! I doubt it's a mortal blow for the GSUSA but it's probably going to hurt memberships, especially in the older age groups. Nothing compares to the danger & adventure offered at your typical BSA summer camp.
TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
Boy scouts in the past was more about camping and activities. It was about self-improvement and learning how to be men. Now that purpose seems to be weakening. Men and women are different, both physically and psychologically[1]. Acting like those differences don't exist hurts everyone IMO. Sure, we should be accepting of aberrations from the norm, but that doesn't mean we should hurt the majority in the process. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans
- sciurus 9y ago
  What is it that Boy Scouts teaches that you don't think girls should be taught?
  - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
    It's not that I don't think girls shouldn't be taught certain information, but it's rather a mindset that is taught. A group of boys being led by men can learn a mindset better suited for the mind of a man. With their greater testosterone, men have much more aggression an desire for status overall than women, and with guidance by a father figure, can learn to harness and focus that energy in a way a woman wouldn't be able to. I worry that in the pursuit of inclusion, that kind of mindset implanting will be lost.
    - alehul 9y ago
      I agree with you on a scientific level, for example, that men have more testosterone and thus are more likely to be aggressive in their pursuits, which is often critical to success. At the same time, however, there are many men who are less aggressive and women who are more aggressive; broad averages aren't the perfect solution. Couldn't we promote this 'aggressive' ideology as genderless? As long as we're clear about the Boy Scouts' ideal member (aggressive), nothing will be disrupted, as only boys and girls who fit and enjoy that environment will choose to join.
      - 9y ago
belorn 9y ago
When I was young here in Sweden, we had "Scouterna" (loosely translated as the scouts) which included both boys and girls. With little to no single-sex education it is very naturally that educational organizations also do not segregate on gender. When the boy scouts started in 1908 I would guess that single-sex education was the norm in the US?
skissane 9y ago
Many other countries already have gender-integrated scouting, so the BSA is just following in the footsteps of much of the rest of the world. Here in Australia, Scouts have accepted girls for decades, although there is still a separate girls-only Girl Guides organisation (equivalent to Girl Scouts). Anecdotally, many girls prefer Scouts to Guides. I think if you give young people the choice between gender-integrated or gender-segregated activities, most will prefer the former, especially once they reach a certain age. It varies from individual group to individual group, but as a generalisation, Scouts tends to put greater emphasis on outdoor activities than Guides, and some girls find that greater emphasis appealing. From a parent's viewpoint, if you have children of both genders, then being able to put them all in the same program can have its logistical advantages.
paulddraper 9y ago
Girls have been a part of the Venture Scout program (usually 16-17). This change adds girls to Cub Scouts (8-10), Boy Scouts (usually 11-13), and Varsity Scouts (usually 14-15).
raymondh 9y ago
I think Baden Powell would be proud.
Tempest1981 9y ago
The Boy Scouts sell popcorn -- it's just less visible/successful. Prices start at $20. I remember feeling bad for the kid salesmen, as adults balked at the high prices, asking "do you have anything cheaper?" Products: https://www.trails-end.com/store/products https://www.trails-end.com/store/products
Sinnesloschen 9y ago
Having a 10 year old boy and 7 year old girl. This is great; my daughter always lamented about how her brother was able to more as a cub scout. She tried girls scouts for a year, then her troop leader left which caused her troop to fold. We could have moved her to another troop, but she didn't want to, she liked the way things were. I would intermittently bring to her different Cub Scout functions. Every time I would she would be included in the activities and encouraged to participate by everyone from leaders to parents. I wasn't keen on the idea of my son joining a god loving, gay hating, etc. organization. It was his choice, his friends were doing it and I went along to make sure nothing happened. After three years of cub scouting I can say that each troop operates on it's own and does what it's leaders feel is best for the kids. If you don't like how your local troop is run try another one, or just take your kids camping, do weekly exercises on rope tying, building bird houses etc. In Canada they just have Scouts of Canada the genders are treated equally. My daughter is excited, I'm only saddened she missed out a few years of fun.

41 points by votepaunchy 9y ago

Finally catching up with the rest of the world. As a child in Canada, I was a member of the local Scout troupe which had quite a few girls in it. Definitely made for a better, more balanced experience. We would make fun of the American troupes who weren't allowed to have any girls in them. Made no sense why not.

cr0sh 9y ago
> As a child in Canada...Made no sense why not. That's pretty much the answer right there. Something you have to understand about the BSA is just how deeply enmeshed religion - specifically Christianity (with a heavy leaning toward Protestantism) - is within the organization. One of the largest (if not the largest) chapters (?) of the BSA is run by the Mormon church (LDS), for instance. This is a nice step forward, and certainly unexpected, but they have more yet to go. For instance, the Girl Scouts allow transgendered individuals to join; I guess we'll see if the BSA ever allows that. Also - despite what another poster said earlier - the BSA is not friendly to atheists, whether they are children, parents of children, or as leaders. There are plenty of fairly recent incidents and announcements about that, just within the past couple of years, to attest to that stance.

smileysteve 9y ago

Weird, because my Scout leader led adventure scouts; http://adventurescoutsusa.org/ http://adventurescoutsusa.org/

Clubber 9y ago

I think that's a pretty good idea. Our daughter joined the Girl Scouts for two years and all she got out of it was to be free child labor for cookie manufacturers. Apparently the troop leader did something fishy with the cookie money and even though they met their goal, they didn't get the reward. We still have boxes of the stuff in our pantry. I was a Weeblo (Boy Scouts) as a kid and didn't get much out of it other than classroom learning, but it was better than selling cookies. I got bored after a few months and didn't go back. Like any nationwide organization, the quality is determined by the locality support. I guess they will have to change their name from The Boy Scouts if enough girls show interest.

MR4D 9y ago

This is sad. Not that they accept girls, but that the Girl Scouts apparently suck so much at understanding their audience. Fallout from this would probably result in either 1) the Girl Scouts becoming much better at satisfying their target audience or 2) the Girl Scouts essentially becoming an irrelevant organization. I hope the first, but the latter looks more likely. They’ve hidden behind cookie sales for years, and outside that, I can’t tell you one thing that they do.

squidbot 9y ago
Girl Scouts is actually a terrific organization in a lot of ways, one thing it's not great at is marketing and leadership support. On top of that We are a family of scouts and scout leaders, and my wife and I both did leadership for our daughters Girl Scout troop. I am also a leader in my sons Cub Scout pack. Girl Scouts has been fundamentally more inclusive and secular than Boy Scouts. A scout is just a scout in Girl Scouts, no matter their gender or religious identity. The program for the girls has adapted well over time and has some great educational components across all types of activities. There is a real focus on getting the girls inspired by STEM. Our local council sponsored and provided materials and funds for First Lego League, and several troops went on to state finals. They hold science fairs, have great camp grounds (and summer camps) and have fantastic outdoor education from both an environmental and sports/leisure aspect. Unfortunately, they also lack funds, so most of the support goes to the girls. Finding and maintaining good adult leaders and volunteers has become increasingly difficult, and adult leadership is what really makes for a good Girl Scout experience, especially when the girls are younger. And the fewer good leaders, the fewer girls who participate, and as a result fewer funds for the organization so spread around. I was in a "scouting family" when I was a kid, and the level of engagement of the adults back then was much better than today. For whatever reason people are "too busy" these to volunteer for something that benefits their kids, and often seem to want to use scouts as baby sitting :( Also, I understand your sentiment on the cookies, but a surprising amount of the money goes back to the troop and to the girls in the form of rewards and scholarships. In our troop we had several girls who were super motivated to sell as it was the only way for their families to afford summer camp (you'd get if I remember correctly, 10% of your sales as money towards camp) and most of these girls would hustle enough to make all they needed to fully fund camp, which was $300-400. Yeah there's some profit for the cookie company, but I think it's something like 50% goes back to Girl Scouts (the org, the troop and the individual girls.)

acty1 9y ago

Disappointing. Another example of women and girls limiting the opportunities for men to build strong positive masculine identities. With the "women's only fitness" to other women's only clubs.... we are turning this into a twisted future where womem are the only ones allowed to have groups that are gender discriminatory.

SOLAR_FIELDS 9y ago

Putting aside the context of whether this makes sense with the existence of Girl Scouts, as an Eagle Scout I’m pretty happy that the organization has made strides to turn around its image of exclusivity. It’s certainly about 15 years later than it needed to be, but such a huge organization that is dedicated to inspiring ideals in young people should be sending the right message. It’s a far cry from the early 2000’s era Boy Scouts which was projecting a much different message. I’m quite ambivalent about the organization’s attitude toward religion, in that it is impossible to be an outspoken atheist and reach the rank of Eagle Scout. To reach the highest rank you must undergo an Eagle board of review, which is an interview of sorts with highly ranked regional council members. During mine, I was asked questions that were mostly formalities until the final question: “Do you believe in a higher power?” When given context to the question, it made a bit more sense: I was told the higher power could be anything, like the Mother Nature or karma. It was then that I understood that the question, however poorly worded, isn’t meant to really be around religion, but instead letting go of your ego. There are much better ways to ask that sort of question though, and being atheist and letting go of your ego are not two mutually exclusive properties. I was agnostic at the time so it was easy for me, but I still question the approach now even though it wasn’t the WASP-like approach I expected.

craftkiller 9y ago
Make no mistake, they were asking if you believed in "God". The BSA prohibits atheists / agnostics [1] My troop told me to lie. I chose to not participate. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20080509074048/http://www.bsalegal.org/duty-to-god-cases-224.asp https://web.archive.org/web/20080509074048/http://www.bsaleg...
- ajhurliman 9y ago
  Literally any belief system as long as it's not atheist/ agnostic. It just blows my mind that people draw the line there.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 9y ago
  Interesting about agnosticism. I didnt specifically process as an agnostic and I was not directly asked the question. The simple question was “Do you believe in a higher power” and no more detail was requested upon my initial answer of “yes”. I imagine if I had elaborated the answe night not have been to the liking of the reviewers.

ntuch 9y ago

What if it turns out that there is a deep-seated psychological need present in many (NOT ALL) humans to participate in peer groups defined along lines of gender - and what if it turns out that if society denies them acceptable outlets for this need, that they fill the need by joining socially unacceptable groups (ie. gangs)? If we suspect that this psychological need is present, do we persist in denying acceptable outlets for it?

Waterluvian 9y ago
So in fewer words you're asking, "what if by allowing girls into scouts, boy scouts will be driven to join gangs?"
- tenaciousDaniel 9y ago
  Gangs may not be the best example, but your interpretation is a mangled version of what op actually said. Clearly we don't know the long term ramifications of these changes. And we're sprinting towards these changes at high speed and acting like we know everything we need to know about gender. We don't. We don't know whether it's merely a social construction or something deeper. And if it turns out to be something deeper, then we run the risk of fucking up a generation of kids.
- pretendscholar 9y ago
  You should be charitable with the way you interpret what people say. That person probably meant "e.g. gangs." I find it frustrating how combative people are when discussing anything on the fringes of what is socially acceptable to say.
- ntuch 9y ago
  That was a poor attempt at argument by ridicule. You didn't actually address anything I said.

mathiasben 9y ago

Just merge the two organizations and call it "scouting" - solved

DannyB2 9y ago
Rather than merge the organizations, have the Girl Scouts start accepting Boys.
- acty1 9y ago
  This. Make no mistake here. This has nothing to do with giving "equal opportunity" of activities to all. But a way of suppressing healthy masculine development. The girl scouts will never accept boys and probably cite some bogus reason due to "safety from icky boys" as the reason. There is nothing wrong with having groups for people based on ethnic background (Black Lives Matter, etc), gender or religiosity. Having girls join the Boy Scouts was a massive shit test, and they failed it.

DoubleCribble 9y ago

I knew the BSA was on a mission to become more inclusive due to declining membership but I didn't see this one coming! I doubt it's a mortal blow for the GSUSA but it's probably going to hurt memberships, especially in the older age groups. Nothing compares to the danger & adventure offered at your typical BSA summer camp.

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago

Boy scouts in the past was more about camping and activities. It was about self-improvement and learning how to be men. Now that purpose seems to be weakening. Men and women are different, both physically and psychologically[1]. Acting like those differences don't exist hurts everyone IMO. Sure, we should be accepting of aberrations from the norm, but that doesn't mean we should hurt the majority in the process. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans

sciurus 9y ago
What is it that Boy Scouts teaches that you don't think girls should be taught?
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  It's not that I don't think girls shouldn't be taught certain information, but it's rather a mindset that is taught. A group of boys being led by men can learn a mindset better suited for the mind of a man. With their greater testosterone, men have much more aggression an desire for status overall than women, and with guidance by a father figure, can learn to harness and focus that energy in a way a woman wouldn't be able to. I worry that in the pursuit of inclusion, that kind of mindset implanting will be lost.
  - alehul 9y ago
    I agree with you on a scientific level, for example, that men have more testosterone and thus are more likely to be aggressive in their pursuits, which is often critical to success. At the same time, however, there are many men who are less aggressive and women who are more aggressive; broad averages aren't the perfect solution. Couldn't we promote this 'aggressive' ideology as genderless? As long as we're clear about the Boy Scouts' ideal member (aggressive), nothing will be disrupted, as only boys and girls who fit and enjoy that environment will choose to join.
    - 9y ago

belorn 9y ago

When I was young here in Sweden, we had "Scouterna" (loosely translated as the scouts) which included both boys and girls. With little to no single-sex education it is very naturally that educational organizations also do not segregate on gender. When the boy scouts started in 1908 I would guess that single-sex education was the norm in the US?

skissane 9y ago

Many other countries already have gender-integrated scouting, so the BSA is just following in the footsteps of much of the rest of the world. Here in Australia, Scouts have accepted girls for decades, although there is still a separate girls-only Girl Guides organisation (equivalent to Girl Scouts). Anecdotally, many girls prefer Scouts to Guides. I think if you give young people the choice between gender-integrated or gender-segregated activities, most will prefer the former, especially once they reach a certain age. It varies from individual group to individual group, but as a generalisation, Scouts tends to put greater emphasis on outdoor activities than Guides, and some girls find that greater emphasis appealing. From a parent's viewpoint, if you have children of both genders, then being able to put them all in the same program can have its logistical advantages.

paulddraper 9y ago

Girls have been a part of the Venture Scout program (usually 16-17). This change adds girls to Cub Scouts (8-10), Boy Scouts (usually 11-13), and Varsity Scouts (usually 14-15).

raymondh 9y ago

I think Baden Powell would be proud.

Tempest1981 9y ago

The Boy Scouts sell popcorn -- it's just less visible/successful. Prices start at $20. I remember feeling bad for the kid salesmen, as adults balked at the high prices, asking "do you have anything cheaper?" Products: https://www.trails-end.com/store/products https://www.trails-end.com/store/products

Sinnesloschen 9y ago

Having a 10 year old boy and 7 year old girl. This is great; my daughter always lamented about how her brother was able to more as a cub scout. She tried girls scouts for a year, then her troop leader left which caused her troop to fold. We could have moved her to another troop, but she didn't want to, she liked the way things were. I would intermittently bring to her different Cub Scout functions. Every time I would she would be included in the activities and encouraged to participate by everyone from leaders to parents. I wasn't keen on the idea of my son joining a god loving, gay hating, etc. organization. It was his choice, his friends were doing it and I went along to make sure nothing happened. After three years of cub scouting I can say that each troop operates on it's own and does what it's leaders feel is best for the kids. If you don't like how your local troop is run try another one, or just take your kids camping, do weekly exercises on rope tying, building bird houses etc. In Canada they just have Scouts of Canada the genders are treated equally. My daughter is excited, I'm only saddened she missed out a few years of fun.