4 ms·

I think this is the intended effect. They operate in a special grey area created by generations past to great advantage. Then they have corruption and mismanage

I think this is the intended effect. They operate in a special grey area created by generations past to great advantage. Then they have corruption and mismanagement in their politics until their economic wellness is a dumpster fire. They literally did this to themselves by selling bonds that they can't pay back that they are obligated "before even necessary services are provided for the citizens". It's sad that they abuse their tax free status and made themselves into a tax haven that is abused without actually bringing much income into the country, then changed tax regulations and increased deficit spending before being forced into austerity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_government-debt_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_government-debt_c... I hope they will allow Congress to incorporate them into the USA as a state after this.

kingkawn 9y ago
Who you talkin about “they?” The poor and working class people dying of preventable disease because the medical system is being allowed to collapse?
- chisleu 9y ago
  If you believe in democracy, than the poor and working people voted for assholes that screw them. They also voted to keep their special status as income tax free rather than becoming a state even though it would have helped to prevent the catastrophe that was PR's entirely absent emergency preparedness.
  - kingkawn 9y ago
    take one look at the manipulation of the political systems in us and pr by monied interests and tell me its poor people’s fault.
flatline 9y ago
For an alternative view on who is to blame: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/puerto-rico-debt-2017-10 https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/puerto-... A lot of the problem is their lack of autonomy. They are dependent on the federal government yet don't have the power of a US state. It's not so much corruption as desperation that drove them to this point.
- chisleu 9y ago
  I don't want to dive into alternative histories when everything points to what really happened: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_government-debt_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_government-debt_c...
anigbrowl 9y ago
Let's not overlook the context in which those bad policies took place, as if PR had been having a wild party while the mainland sobbed over its departure from the path of fiscal rectitude. Also, let's not forget that the citizens who live there have little input into the financial administration of the territory. You shouldn't need a degree in finance to assess candidates at election time, nor does voting for a particular candidate provide voters with anything resembling direct fiscal control. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_government-debt_crisis#Background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_government-debt_c...
forapurpose 9y ago
> selling bonds that they can't pay back That is not at all unique to PR. It's a widespread problem in U.S. government. That's the reason the city of Detroit went bankrupt. Many, many government entities have liabilities, especially pensions, that they can't afford. Many companies have the same problem; it drove General Motors to bankruptcy. The federal government toys with bankruptcy each time Congress needs to authorize additional debt, and now the leading tax legislation will drive up debt considerably more. But the overwhelming example is the Great Recession of 2008, which was due to the exact same problem, on a very wide scale, on Wall Street. In that case, the bonds (and other financial instruments) were based on fraudulent housing loans. In most of the above cases, the taxpayers of the U.S. stepped in and rescued the debtors. Also, in the West, debtors prison is no longer considered a good thing - bankruptcy lets debtors recover. There's no reason PR shouldn't benefit from the same support.
- chisleu 9y ago
  >That is not at all unique to PR. You cut off the part that is unique, which was that PR citizens are also US citizens but they do not pay federal income tax unless they come to the mainland. They do not pay capital gains tax either. They sold bonds with special clauses that they must be paid back, even before critical services are provided to the people. They defaulted and now they are being forced to pay it back even though they can't fund their emergency preparedness, hospitals, or infrastructure and emergency response. PR was not at all prepared for something that was obviously coming and they are trying to use political pressure to get the huge anti-Trump sentiment in the country to think it was all Trump's fault when he has little to do with overseeing FEMA's response. I'm sure there are things he could have done better. His statements have been asinine and politically tone deaf for sure, but this isn't about him. This is about the mess PR made. If they want to be a state, then be a state. Otherwise, they offer nothing to the USA and in my opinion should be dissolved as a US territory.
  - forapurpose 9y ago
    > Trump's fault when he has little to do with overseeing FEMA's response. Trump is the elected President and is directly responsible to the citizens for the Executive Branch, including FEMA. His job is, specifically, the performance of the Executive Branch. If FEMA isn't delivering, he needs to see to fixing it ASAP. He needed to see to it that they were prepared. > PR was not at all prepared for something that was obviously coming and they are trying to ... Is there more to that then words typed in a web forum? That is all I've seen; nothing to support that story. > Otherwise, they offer nothing to the USA and in my opinion should be dissolved as a US territory. Membership isn't based on contribution, nor is past contribution a prediction of the future. Should poor people be kicked out? What about Mississippi? The US has always been based on the belief that people, if given freedom and opportunity, can prosper and achieve.
r00fus 9y ago
> They literally did this to themselves I don't think it makes sense to conflate the corrupt officials (who likely took money from US entities seeking to corrupt them) and the masses of poor and non-influential who are now suffering.
- chisleu 9y ago
  They get to elect the assholes and people time and time again elect people who do not do any good. Congress has an incredibly low approval rating, but individual congressman generally have good approval ratings in their district. IMHO, If you believe in democracy, then the people are responsible for the actions of their representative republic.

kingkawn 9y ago

Who you talkin about “they?” The poor and working class people dying of preventable disease because the medical system is being allowed to collapse?

chisleu 9y ago
If you believe in democracy, than the poor and working people voted for assholes that screw them. They also voted to keep their special status as income tax free rather than becoming a state even though it would have helped to prevent the catastrophe that was PR's entirely absent emergency preparedness.
- kingkawn 9y ago
  take one look at the manipulation of the political systems in us and pr by monied interests and tell me its poor people’s fault.

flatline 9y ago

For an alternative view on who is to blame: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/puerto-rico-debt-2017-10 https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/puerto-... A lot of the problem is their lack of autonomy. They are dependent on the federal government yet don't have the power of a US state. It's not so much corruption as desperation that drove them to this point.

chisleu 9y ago
I don't want to dive into alternative histories when everything points to what really happened: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_government-debt_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_government-debt_c...

anigbrowl 9y ago

Let's not overlook the context in which those bad policies took place, as if PR had been having a wild party while the mainland sobbed over its departure from the path of fiscal rectitude. Also, let's not forget that the citizens who live there have little input into the financial administration of the territory. You shouldn't need a degree in finance to assess candidates at election time, nor does voting for a particular candidate provide voters with anything resembling direct fiscal control. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_government-debt_crisis#Background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_government-debt_c...

forapurpose 9y ago

> selling bonds that they can't pay back That is not at all unique to PR. It's a widespread problem in U.S. government. That's the reason the city of Detroit went bankrupt. Many, many government entities have liabilities, especially pensions, that they can't afford. Many companies have the same problem; it drove General Motors to bankruptcy. The federal government toys with bankruptcy each time Congress needs to authorize additional debt, and now the leading tax legislation will drive up debt considerably more. But the overwhelming example is the Great Recession of 2008, which was due to the exact same problem, on a very wide scale, on Wall Street. In that case, the bonds (and other financial instruments) were based on fraudulent housing loans. In most of the above cases, the taxpayers of the U.S. stepped in and rescued the debtors. Also, in the West, debtors prison is no longer considered a good thing - bankruptcy lets debtors recover. There's no reason PR shouldn't benefit from the same support.

chisleu 9y ago
>That is not at all unique to PR. You cut off the part that is unique, which was that PR citizens are also US citizens but they do not pay federal income tax unless they come to the mainland. They do not pay capital gains tax either. They sold bonds with special clauses that they must be paid back, even before critical services are provided to the people. They defaulted and now they are being forced to pay it back even though they can't fund their emergency preparedness, hospitals, or infrastructure and emergency response. PR was not at all prepared for something that was obviously coming and they are trying to use political pressure to get the huge anti-Trump sentiment in the country to think it was all Trump's fault when he has little to do with overseeing FEMA's response. I'm sure there are things he could have done better. His statements have been asinine and politically tone deaf for sure, but this isn't about him. This is about the mess PR made. If they want to be a state, then be a state. Otherwise, they offer nothing to the USA and in my opinion should be dissolved as a US territory.
- forapurpose 9y ago
  > Trump's fault when he has little to do with overseeing FEMA's response. Trump is the elected President and is directly responsible to the citizens for the Executive Branch, including FEMA. His job is, specifically, the performance of the Executive Branch. If FEMA isn't delivering, he needs to see to fixing it ASAP. He needed to see to it that they were prepared. > PR was not at all prepared for something that was obviously coming and they are trying to ... Is there more to that then words typed in a web forum? That is all I've seen; nothing to support that story. > Otherwise, they offer nothing to the USA and in my opinion should be dissolved as a US territory. Membership isn't based on contribution, nor is past contribution a prediction of the future. Should poor people be kicked out? What about Mississippi? The US has always been based on the belief that people, if given freedom and opportunity, can prosper and achieve.

r00fus 9y ago

> They literally did this to themselves I don't think it makes sense to conflate the corrupt officials (who likely took money from US entities seeking to corrupt them) and the masses of poor and non-influential who are now suffering.

chisleu 9y ago
They get to elect the assholes and people time and time again elect people who do not do any good. Congress has an incredibly low approval rating, but individual congressman generally have good approval ratings in their district. IMHO, If you believe in democracy, then the people are responsible for the actions of their representative republic.