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Professional programmers often scoff at these kinds of tools, a lot of time for good reason. However I believe that with the right approach such a system could

Professional programmers often scoff at these kinds of tools, a lot of time for good reason. However I believe that with the right approach such a system could also speed development for a lot of serious and complex development efforts. It would have to use standard pro level libraries and tools underneath, with the easy UI being essentially and abstraction over of subset of the functionality. This would allow it to retain great usability, but still with no limitations for advanced users. Of course this hasn’t really happened yet, but I think it’s because the right balance, architecture, and respect for both user experiences has not been applied. It would also involve leading and tightening some standards to allow things to work together more consistently. Remember how things were before package managers? Why couldn’t there be a better way to standardize scaffolding operations and configuration for example? I realize a lot of this seems to be pulling in two different directions, but so many of the pieces already exist, and so much of pro effort is wasted on grunt work tasks like getting things glued together that should be easier.

avodonosov 9y ago
Have you worked with Borland Delphi? Is it close to the ideal you described?
- estraschnov 9y ago
  Delphi has actually been an inspiration for the UX (i was a big user in 1996).
  - avodonosov 9y ago
    What UX?
    - avodonosov 9y ago
      Ah, you are one of the creators. If Bubble is similar to Delphi, I wouldn't call it visual programming (can you develop IF statements, loops and functions visually?). A better name for Delphi kind of tools would be "Rapid Application Development Environment". And it's more convincing name than "visual programming" - I have never seen a successful visual programming environment.
brucephillips 9y ago
If by "easy UI" you mean a WYSIWYG UI editor, those exist for most serious development of applications, such as for Windows, iOS, and Android, though they still aren't the norm in web for some reason. But if by "easy UI" you mean the visual programming language, or the graphical DDL, then I'm skeptical it has any value to programmers. No programmer I know would want to use a visual programming language at all, even with an option to fall into a full text-based programming language.
- lamlam 9y ago
  Seems like this would be a great way to teach kids, no?
  - estraschnov 9y ago
    We think so (and in fact wrote this https://blog.bubble.is/improving-computer-education-less-code-more-programming-b626cc13b2bb https://blog.bubble.is/improving-computer-education-less-cod...). We’ve seen a few high schools use Bubble already, but haven’t had time to push for a more systematic approach (providing content, etc.)
- foopod 9y ago
  > No programmer I know would want to use a visual programming language at all, even with an option to fall into a full text-based programming language. This is something that a lot of game and graphics programmers are doing already. UE4 uses Blueprints[0] now, with the ability for programmers to drop into C++ for more control. I also think that having multiple ways to interact with programming languages is awesome from an accessibility perspective too. [0] https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Engine/Blueprints/ https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Engine/Blueprints/
  - davedx 9y ago
    Yep. Also see Unity's animation controller system. It's only web developers who scoff at tools that improve productivity...
deleted 9y ago
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jacami 9y ago
Like the idea. Still how would this mix with custom components? I mean, one could do so by having some sort of actions layer and linking that to components which may be build from some more elemental ones but the exact look and feel will be dictated by the library of elemental components available.
deleted 9y ago
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beaconstudios 9y ago
I'm trying to solve this issue at the moment - it's really quite difficult to distill the "core components" of something like web development without leaving that's commonly-used out of the picture, but my project is slowly getting there. I'm aiming for an MVP launch within the next couple of months, feel free to check my profile for the early signup link if you're interested.

avodonosov 9y ago

Have you worked with Borland Delphi? Is it close to the ideal you described?

estraschnov 9y ago
Delphi has actually been an inspiration for the UX (i was a big user in 1996).
- avodonosov 9y ago
  What UX?
  - avodonosov 9y ago
    Ah, you are one of the creators. If Bubble is similar to Delphi, I wouldn't call it visual programming (can you develop IF statements, loops and functions visually?). A better name for Delphi kind of tools would be "Rapid Application Development Environment". And it's more convincing name than "visual programming" - I have never seen a successful visual programming environment.

brucephillips 9y ago

If by "easy UI" you mean a WYSIWYG UI editor, those exist for most serious development of applications, such as for Windows, iOS, and Android, though they still aren't the norm in web for some reason. But if by "easy UI" you mean the visual programming language, or the graphical DDL, then I'm skeptical it has any value to programmers. No programmer I know would want to use a visual programming language at all, even with an option to fall into a full text-based programming language.

lamlam 9y ago
Seems like this would be a great way to teach kids, no?
- estraschnov 9y ago
  We think so (and in fact wrote this https://blog.bubble.is/improving-computer-education-less-code-more-programming-b626cc13b2bb https://blog.bubble.is/improving-computer-education-less-cod...). We’ve seen a few high schools use Bubble already, but haven’t had time to push for a more systematic approach (providing content, etc.)
foopod 9y ago
> No programmer I know would want to use a visual programming language at all, even with an option to fall into a full text-based programming language. This is something that a lot of game and graphics programmers are doing already. UE4 uses Blueprints[0] now, with the ability for programmers to drop into C++ for more control. I also think that having multiple ways to interact with programming languages is awesome from an accessibility perspective too. [0] https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Engine/Blueprints/ https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Engine/Blueprints/
- davedx 9y ago
  Yep. Also see Unity's animation controller system. It's only web developers who scoff at tools that improve productivity...

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

jacami 9y ago

Like the idea. Still how would this mix with custom components? I mean, one could do so by having some sort of actions layer and linking that to components which may be build from some more elemental ones but the exact look and feel will be dictated by the library of elemental components available.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

beaconstudios 9y ago

I'm trying to solve this issue at the moment - it's really quite difficult to distill the "core components" of something like web development without leaving that's commonly-used out of the picture, but my project is slowly getting there. I'm aiming for an MVP launch within the next couple of months, feel free to check my profile for the early signup link if you're interested.