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> Theres also this mentality that pretty much anything goes in businesses, which I find a bit interesting. Hence the phrase: it's not personal, it's business. S

> Theres also this mentality that pretty much anything goes in businesses, which I find a bit interesting. Hence the phrase: it's not personal, it's business. So people are allowed to screw you over and be complete a-holes when it comes to business. In my experience, this isn't how the vast majority of wealthy people operate. It's how it's portrayed in the movies, but it doesn't really jive with the real world. People love stories of the evil geniuses so those get spread around, but the vast majority of wealthy people deliver pretty well, keep their promises, work extremely hard, are fair and even-handed, and make the world a better place. Generally speaking, the higher up you go in wealth, the more likely you are to get a fair shake by that person in business. It's hard to get wealthy without people trusting you and building a good reputation as a reliable and effective person. You're much more likely to have someone try to screw you over if they're poor or middle class - which is why those people remain poor and middle class. It's quite hard to get wealthy if you're leaving a trail of carnage behind you (it's been done, but it makes it a hell of a lot harder).

_delirium 16y ago
Are you including how the wealthy people operate when they're running businesses, or just in their personal lives? I've interacted with a number of game companies, for example, and I've found the big ones much more likely to try to screw you over if you don't have lawyers keeping them from doing so, whereas small indie studios will keep their word and try to act in a way that seems ethical, even if the letter of the law would let them screw you. And even within the large companies, it gets worse as you go up the corporate ladder: you can meet some designers who are trustworthy and will even go out of their way to make sure your dealings with them are positive (fighting their own management if necessary), but you always have to be wary if it's a CEO or VP you're talking to, because they'll stab you in the back if an opportunity arises. Of course, some people get rich by operating those smallish businesses, and lots of them seem upstanding to me. But a lot of people get rich by filling the decision-maker (CEO/VP/etc.) roles at large firms, where they tend to be somewhat ruthless, perhaps because there's something of a disconnect in ethical responsibility (they're just doing their jobs, nothing personal).
- lionhearted 16y ago
  Good comment/questions. Thought provoking. > Are you including how the wealthy people operate when they're running businesses, or just in their personal lives? Generally speaking, both. Some people do poorly in one direction or the other, but I find successful people to be pretty honorable most of the time. > I've interacted with a number of game companies, for example, and I've found the big ones much more likely to try to screw you over if you don't have lawyers keeping them from doing so, whereas small indie studios will keep their word and try to act in a way that seems ethical Care to share some anecdotes about the game industry? That'd be cool to hear. Gaming seems like an interesting example, I don't have any friends in gaming specifically. I get the impression that indie studios are really in it for the love of it, so you're dealing with people who are working with their passionate love for less money, so that's a good point. Actually, if anything, the worst gap is when going from a laborer or craftsman (generally pretty honest and good guys) to a middle manager. I think, I hope we're on the path to obsoleting middle managers in general, because its just not a role conducive to good people. Good middle managers get promoted or hired away to be upper level managers, or leave to start their own company pretty quickly. So you get all sorts of bureaucratic flunkeys in that role - no good. I'm surprised to hear you've got to be wary around a CEO of a major company, though. I'm friends with more business owners and skilled professionals (architects, engineers, etc) than high level executives, but the high level executives I've met seem like decent sorts. Can't comment so much - I was thinking more about business owners than high level employees when I commented. I guess that's my bias. > Of course, some people get rich by operating those smallish businesses, and lots of them seem upstanding to me. Right, this is mostly my social circle and our acquaintances. Maybe the corporate world is uglier and I was overlooking it... one potential HUGE conflict of interest nobody talks about is when ownership and management are mis-aligned, especially in public companies. I think I'll never, ever buy stock in a public company again unless the top 5 decisionmakers in the organization own like a combine 30-40% of the company at least. Good question, good comment. I would be interested in hearing about your experiences in gaming if you think you can talk in a way that wouldn't potentially bring heat on you.
  - mattm 16y ago
    I would recommend you read "Barbarians at the Gate: The Fall of RJR Nabisco" It's an eye-opening book about just how removed upper management of a public company can be. Although I don't have much anecdotal experience to back it up, I think people who start their own companies and grow them are much more likely to be honorable than employees who worked their way up to become CEO. Being upper management of a large corporation is generally a golden ticket. Even if you do a horrible job, you will probably still receive millions in pay and stock options. In fact, because the organization is so large, it will probably take a couple years for people to figure out if you are doing poorly. By that time, you already have your money. Because of the incentives, I would think that people trying to get into these types of positions would be much more ruthless than people who generated their wealth through their own means. Like I said, I don't have much experience with this but it is how I imagine things are.

_delirium 16y ago

Are you including how the wealthy people operate when they're running businesses, or just in their personal lives? I've interacted with a number of game companies, for example, and I've found the big ones much more likely to try to screw you over if you don't have lawyers keeping them from doing so, whereas small indie studios will keep their word and try to act in a way that seems ethical, even if the letter of the law would let them screw you. And even within the large companies, it gets worse as you go up the corporate ladder: you can meet some designers who are trustworthy and will even go out of their way to make sure your dealings with them are positive (fighting their own management if necessary), but you always have to be wary if it's a CEO or VP you're talking to, because they'll stab you in the back if an opportunity arises. Of course, some people get rich by operating those smallish businesses, and lots of them seem upstanding to me. But a lot of people get rich by filling the decision-maker (CEO/VP/etc.) roles at large firms, where they tend to be somewhat ruthless, perhaps because there's something of a disconnect in ethical responsibility (they're just doing their jobs, nothing personal).

lionhearted 16y ago
Good comment/questions. Thought provoking. > Are you including how the wealthy people operate when they're running businesses, or just in their personal lives? Generally speaking, both. Some people do poorly in one direction or the other, but I find successful people to be pretty honorable most of the time. > I've interacted with a number of game companies, for example, and I've found the big ones much more likely to try to screw you over if you don't have lawyers keeping them from doing so, whereas small indie studios will keep their word and try to act in a way that seems ethical Care to share some anecdotes about the game industry? That'd be cool to hear. Gaming seems like an interesting example, I don't have any friends in gaming specifically. I get the impression that indie studios are really in it for the love of it, so you're dealing with people who are working with their passionate love for less money, so that's a good point. Actually, if anything, the worst gap is when going from a laborer or craftsman (generally pretty honest and good guys) to a middle manager. I think, I hope we're on the path to obsoleting middle managers in general, because its just not a role conducive to good people. Good middle managers get promoted or hired away to be upper level managers, or leave to start their own company pretty quickly. So you get all sorts of bureaucratic flunkeys in that role - no good. I'm surprised to hear you've got to be wary around a CEO of a major company, though. I'm friends with more business owners and skilled professionals (architects, engineers, etc) than high level executives, but the high level executives I've met seem like decent sorts. Can't comment so much - I was thinking more about business owners than high level employees when I commented. I guess that's my bias. > Of course, some people get rich by operating those smallish businesses, and lots of them seem upstanding to me. Right, this is mostly my social circle and our acquaintances. Maybe the corporate world is uglier and I was overlooking it... one potential HUGE conflict of interest nobody talks about is when ownership and management are mis-aligned, especially in public companies. I think I'll never, ever buy stock in a public company again unless the top 5 decisionmakers in the organization own like a combine 30-40% of the company at least. Good question, good comment. I would be interested in hearing about your experiences in gaming if you think you can talk in a way that wouldn't potentially bring heat on you.
- mattm 16y ago
  I would recommend you read "Barbarians at the Gate: The Fall of RJR Nabisco" It's an eye-opening book about just how removed upper management of a public company can be. Although I don't have much anecdotal experience to back it up, I think people who start their own companies and grow them are much more likely to be honorable than employees who worked their way up to become CEO. Being upper management of a large corporation is generally a golden ticket. Even if you do a horrible job, you will probably still receive millions in pay and stock options. In fact, because the organization is so large, it will probably take a couple years for people to figure out if you are doing poorly. By that time, you already have your money. Because of the incentives, I would think that people trying to get into these types of positions would be much more ruthless than people who generated their wealth through their own means. Like I said, I don't have much experience with this but it is how I imagine things are.