9 ms·

> That chicken is a confit (with duck fat, aka $$), then served with a stock/stew that takes days (of labor dollars) to prepare, plus cost of employees to serve

by rdtsc 9y ago

> That chicken is a confit (with duck fat, aka $$), then served with a stock/stew that takes days (of labor dollars) to prepare, plus cost of employees to serve, stuff to serve it on and rent to pay, not to mention the utilities (the water bills on that cursed grease trap were the opposite of "the gift that keeps on giving"). That damned chicken should be $40! Maybe $60 even. But the restaurant has to look and feel like the restaurant which serves $60 chicken. Maybe there is a marketing problem there, people thought it was just plain chicken. Then yes, $29 is too expensive. If they were eating chicken confit, with carefully crafted stock which took days and a team of 3 chefs to make, and it came from some Sunny Mountain organic free-range farm in the next county then $29 sounds like bargain. But as they say, everyone in Portland wants to open a restaurant. Probably anyone who could and wanted, already did. So there are plenty of options. At least I remember lots of options to choose from. There is another element I noticed. If there are just a few good restaurants, and a plethora of other ones, people will just go to the ones they know. Not just because it is easy and a default choice. But also because they learned that trying new ones did not turn out as well, so they stop trying. > bringing the plumbing up to code. $20,000 later we had a huge pit, filled with the gigantic, state-of-the-art grease trap the city now requires—all of which now benefit not us, but the landlord and his next tenant. That sounds like they got swindled. They paid for an improvement to the rental property, how come the landlord didn't split that with them. It just seems unfair.

audiometry 9y ago
Yeah, I don't know if the photos were stock or pictures of the real premises. But I wouldn't be very keen on 40-50$ entrees in a restaurant serving things in styrofoam cups.
- dsshanley 9y ago
  Those are the real photos. That's of the breakfast bar side, not the dining room.
tryingagainbro 9y ago
That sounds like they got swindled. They paid for an improvement to the rental property, how come the landlord didn't split that with them. It just seems unfair. Landlord: I don't care if you do it or not.
icebraining 9y ago
That sounds like they got swindled. They paid for an improvement to the rental property, how come the landlord didn't split that with them. It just seems unfair. Eh, as a landlord myself, unless we agreed upfront to cover that improvement (usually by discounting on the rent), you're on your own. Renting to restaurants seems like a pain in the first place; considering their low expected lifetime, the property will have to be on the market again soon enough, losing money during the transition. Plus who knows if they won't go bankrupt with unpaid rent. If this was prime location for restaurants, the grease trap would already be there. As it isn't, chances are the next tenant won't even be a restaurant. I wouldn't contribute either, frankly.
- stuntkite 9y ago
  I very much feel for this guys plight and what he's going through. He says the whole story right at the top. The venue is what screwed him. He didn't know all the things he learned about the food after he opened the place, but what he REALLY didn't know was about the operations of a building and the cost of the corner he wanted to end up on. That fucked him from the jump. I know he's frustrated, as anyone would be, but the deck was stacked from the get go and it's no one's fault but his. Not the landlord or the grease trap. That was writing on the wall about unknown unknowns. He starts by saying how "hot" the market is, like that's a good thing for his persuit. He starts with talk of it being saturated. The landlord doesn't need to take any risks on that hot corner for your grease trap or electrical. I've taken a bath on a few things where I over invested in fixed costs. I've had to take a couple years off after a six year startup struggle because of burnout. I will say that when I've come back around, after really fucking kicking myself and licking all wounds, it was a VERY expensive lesson. Emotionally, fiscally, and socially. Usually cheaper than a masters degree though and infinitely more applicable to future runs at the real goal. You want to get free and run a creative operation? Great. The world does not give a shit. Worse than that, it hates you and wants you to fail. The path to real freedom is paved with bloody miserable failure. Bad leases will eat you, which is not the landlords fault. If you want to make money, buy a Chick-fil-a franchise. They have a great track record and financing. If you wanna make art, be prepared to suffer for it and have no one give a flying fuck about how much it hurt to try. The desire to blend art and commerce is something that very few people succeed at. Just because you have worked in a kitchen and scored a half million in inheritance doesn't mean anyone needs to care. No matter how much you spent. You could have put the cash in an account and get so good at cooking that someone else will take the ops risk to open your counter or take the risk yourself and learn hard what you don't know. The world sheds no tears either way. Bunk Sandwiches in Portland didn't start with a $40 chicken. They started with a hole in the wall and a Cuban Sandwich that would make you slap your grandma. Also they could make them fast for $12 and had a line out the door. Eight years later they have several locations and a concert venue. The sandwich isn't as good anymore, but they made a legacy out of thing that could support itself and can continue to grow. I don't know anything about their owners, but I bet they can tell you some shit about surviving upside down leases and kitchen costs. I seriously wish this guy the best. I'm sure some days that chicken was one of the best things anyone has ever tasted.
vacri 9y ago
> They paid for an improvement to the rental property, how come the landlord didn't split that with them. It just seems unfair. In business, the landlord is renting a space, and the company renting fits it out. You could spend more than several years' rent on a fit-out, why should the landlord goes halvsies in that case?
- raverbashing 9y ago
  Because you can then rent for a bigger amount (conditional on it being the tenant that needs what you have fitted), which is not so hard
  - taurath 9y ago
    If there are more restauranteurs out there that don’t know about the grease trap regulation, then maybe not.
    - raverbashing 9y ago
      Sounds like an opportunity to educate them (before the city inspectors show up, at least) Though, yeah, depending on the area I don't expect adherence (or enforcement) to be much effective, which doesn't seem to be the case for where this restaurant was located though
      - marak830 9y ago
        Anyone who runs a restaurant that doesn't know what a grease trap is, hasn't actually worked in a restaurant. Which I believe sums up this author.
  - vacri 9y ago
    The difference between "the rent for this space" and "the rent for this space plus a new grease trap" is going to be nowhere near recouping money on the trap. Like a car, expensive upgrades generally mean very little to future worth. It also works in reverse though - when you leave a premises, you don't have to strip out your custom fit-out and put the space back into how it looked before you left. The landlord can't say "I never liked your choice of lighting, so put it back the way it was", for example.
x0x0 9y ago
Either this guy didn't get his contractor on site before signing a lease, or the contractor is at fault for not mentioning this $20k problem. This is what happens when you skip your due diligence, because any contractor who should be building out restaurants would have known about the grease trap regulations off the top of his or her head. For anyone else thinking of renovations, it's really worth it to get a contractor onsite before you commit. Any competent one will be able to tell you things like hey, widening those door frames 2 inches to bring you up to code is going to be far more expensive than you think it ought to be. etc etc etc. And just wait until you see how much a bit of asbestos on your ceiling is gonna cost you to remediate...
- AlgorithmicTime 9y ago
  That's when you get your building inspector to point out the asbestos before you even take possession of the building with a wink and nudge and then you carefully pull them out yourself and no one is the wiser.
junkcollector 9y ago
The mistake you are making there is assuming that those improvements add any value to the landlord or property. They don't. That $20,000 grease trap is an anchor that the next tenant has to have pulled out at great expense. They probably want different lighting so the electrical will have to be redone as well. In any commercial property I have ever dealt with the tenant is responsible for any renovations because every tenant is looking to outfit the space differently. If the market is heavily in the favor of the renters at the time, I have seen landlords offer discounts on the rent to help cover certain renovations, typically expanded electrical service and the like, but even that has it's limits as landlords typically have costs associated with ownership they need to cover out of the rent.
- TACIXAT 9y ago
  Malls and (high cash flow) retail spaces will often provide tenants with money for renovations upon lease signing. For a 10 year lease on a proven business, it's not uncommon to have $20,000 - $100,000 build out on the space. This is, of course, priced into the lease.
greedo 9y ago
Leasehold improvements aren't always split; it's better to negotiate those during the lease discussion. In our restaurant, we got ZIP back from the landlord for leasehold improvements.
ska 9y ago
Maybe $60 even. But the restaurant has to look and feel like the restaurant which serves $60 chicken. However margins on high end fine dining are reportedly even worse than most of the sector. If they're selling you $40 chicken it's probably still at a loss, counting on you making it up on wine and pastries.
cwilkes 9y ago
Landlord splitting a cost with the renter? I about spit my coffee out. While that’s true with residential housing (where the landlord pays all of the bill) it is not at all like that in commercial real estate. I’ve worked at a number of startups where we needed an improvement. Electrical, computer wiring, knocking down a wall between two adjoining units that are now one. Not once has the landlord even offered to pay for any of it. They can do this as they hold all the cards. Employers or shopkeepers need a physical space. There’s a limited amount of it in a desirable area. Ergo they can get away with it. This isn’t true in residential as there is always more inventory coming online. Plus people will decide to move farther away. You can’t easily do that with a business. What this does mean is that when opening a restaurant look for a place that previously had a restaurant in it and use their improvements. You’ll probably get a deal from the previous failed one to buy the movable equipment.

by rdtsc 9y ago

audiometry 9y ago

Yeah, I don't know if the photos were stock or pictures of the real premises. But I wouldn't be very keen on 40-50$ entrees in a restaurant serving things in styrofoam cups.

dsshanley 9y ago
Those are the real photos. That's of the breakfast bar side, not the dining room.

tryingagainbro 9y ago

That sounds like they got swindled. They paid for an improvement to the rental property, how come the landlord didn't split that with them. It just seems unfair. Landlord: I don't care if you do it or not.

icebraining 9y ago

That sounds like they got swindled. They paid for an improvement to the rental property, how come the landlord didn't split that with them. It just seems unfair. Eh, as a landlord myself, unless we agreed upfront to cover that improvement (usually by discounting on the rent), you're on your own. Renting to restaurants seems like a pain in the first place; considering their low expected lifetime, the property will have to be on the market again soon enough, losing money during the transition. Plus who knows if they won't go bankrupt with unpaid rent. If this was prime location for restaurants, the grease trap would already be there. As it isn't, chances are the next tenant won't even be a restaurant. I wouldn't contribute either, frankly.

stuntkite 9y ago
I very much feel for this guys plight and what he's going through. He says the whole story right at the top. The venue is what screwed him. He didn't know all the things he learned about the food after he opened the place, but what he REALLY didn't know was about the operations of a building and the cost of the corner he wanted to end up on. That fucked him from the jump. I know he's frustrated, as anyone would be, but the deck was stacked from the get go and it's no one's fault but his. Not the landlord or the grease trap. That was writing on the wall about unknown unknowns. He starts by saying how "hot" the market is, like that's a good thing for his persuit. He starts with talk of it being saturated. The landlord doesn't need to take any risks on that hot corner for your grease trap or electrical. I've taken a bath on a few things where I over invested in fixed costs. I've had to take a couple years off after a six year startup struggle because of burnout. I will say that when I've come back around, after really fucking kicking myself and licking all wounds, it was a VERY expensive lesson. Emotionally, fiscally, and socially. Usually cheaper than a masters degree though and infinitely more applicable to future runs at the real goal. You want to get free and run a creative operation? Great. The world does not give a shit. Worse than that, it hates you and wants you to fail. The path to real freedom is paved with bloody miserable failure. Bad leases will eat you, which is not the landlords fault. If you want to make money, buy a Chick-fil-a franchise. They have a great track record and financing. If you wanna make art, be prepared to suffer for it and have no one give a flying fuck about how much it hurt to try. The desire to blend art and commerce is something that very few people succeed at. Just because you have worked in a kitchen and scored a half million in inheritance doesn't mean anyone needs to care. No matter how much you spent. You could have put the cash in an account and get so good at cooking that someone else will take the ops risk to open your counter or take the risk yourself and learn hard what you don't know. The world sheds no tears either way. Bunk Sandwiches in Portland didn't start with a $40 chicken. They started with a hole in the wall and a Cuban Sandwich that would make you slap your grandma. Also they could make them fast for $12 and had a line out the door. Eight years later they have several locations and a concert venue. The sandwich isn't as good anymore, but they made a legacy out of thing that could support itself and can continue to grow. I don't know anything about their owners, but I bet they can tell you some shit about surviving upside down leases and kitchen costs. I seriously wish this guy the best. I'm sure some days that chicken was one of the best things anyone has ever tasted.

vacri 9y ago

> They paid for an improvement to the rental property, how come the landlord didn't split that with them. It just seems unfair. In business, the landlord is renting a space, and the company renting fits it out. You could spend more than several years' rent on a fit-out, why should the landlord goes halvsies in that case?

raverbashing 9y ago
Because you can then rent for a bigger amount (conditional on it being the tenant that needs what you have fitted), which is not so hard
- taurath 9y ago
  If there are more restauranteurs out there that don’t know about the grease trap regulation, then maybe not.
  - raverbashing 9y ago
    Sounds like an opportunity to educate them (before the city inspectors show up, at least) Though, yeah, depending on the area I don't expect adherence (or enforcement) to be much effective, which doesn't seem to be the case for where this restaurant was located though
    - marak830 9y ago
      Anyone who runs a restaurant that doesn't know what a grease trap is, hasn't actually worked in a restaurant. Which I believe sums up this author.
- vacri 9y ago
  The difference between "the rent for this space" and "the rent for this space plus a new grease trap" is going to be nowhere near recouping money on the trap. Like a car, expensive upgrades generally mean very little to future worth. It also works in reverse though - when you leave a premises, you don't have to strip out your custom fit-out and put the space back into how it looked before you left. The landlord can't say "I never liked your choice of lighting, so put it back the way it was", for example.

x0x0 9y ago

Either this guy didn't get his contractor on site before signing a lease, or the contractor is at fault for not mentioning this $20k problem. This is what happens when you skip your due diligence, because any contractor who should be building out restaurants would have known about the grease trap regulations off the top of his or her head. For anyone else thinking of renovations, it's really worth it to get a contractor onsite before you commit. Any competent one will be able to tell you things like hey, widening those door frames 2 inches to bring you up to code is going to be far more expensive than you think it ought to be. etc etc etc. And just wait until you see how much a bit of asbestos on your ceiling is gonna cost you to remediate...

AlgorithmicTime 9y ago
That's when you get your building inspector to point out the asbestos before you even take possession of the building with a wink and nudge and then you carefully pull them out yourself and no one is the wiser.

junkcollector 9y ago

The mistake you are making there is assuming that those improvements add any value to the landlord or property. They don't. That $20,000 grease trap is an anchor that the next tenant has to have pulled out at great expense. They probably want different lighting so the electrical will have to be redone as well. In any commercial property I have ever dealt with the tenant is responsible for any renovations because every tenant is looking to outfit the space differently. If the market is heavily in the favor of the renters at the time, I have seen landlords offer discounts on the rent to help cover certain renovations, typically expanded electrical service and the like, but even that has it's limits as landlords typically have costs associated with ownership they need to cover out of the rent.

TACIXAT 9y ago
Malls and (high cash flow) retail spaces will often provide tenants with money for renovations upon lease signing. For a 10 year lease on a proven business, it's not uncommon to have $20,000 - $100,000 build out on the space. This is, of course, priced into the lease.

greedo 9y ago

Leasehold improvements aren't always split; it's better to negotiate those during the lease discussion. In our restaurant, we got ZIP back from the landlord for leasehold improvements.

ska 9y ago

Maybe $60 even. But the restaurant has to look and feel like the restaurant which serves $60 chicken. However margins on high end fine dining are reportedly even worse than most of the sector. If they're selling you $40 chicken it's probably still at a loss, counting on you making it up on wine and pastries.

cwilkes 9y ago

Landlord splitting a cost with the renter? I about spit my coffee out. While that’s true with residential housing (where the landlord pays all of the bill) it is not at all like that in commercial real estate. I’ve worked at a number of startups where we needed an improvement. Electrical, computer wiring, knocking down a wall between two adjoining units that are now one. Not once has the landlord even offered to pay for any of it. They can do this as they hold all the cards. Employers or shopkeepers need a physical space. There’s a limited amount of it in a desirable area. Ergo they can get away with it. This isn’t true in residential as there is always more inventory coming online. Plus people will decide to move farther away. You can’t easily do that with a business. What this does mean is that when opening a restaurant look for a place that previously had a restaurant in it and use their improvements. You’ll probably get a deal from the previous failed one to buy the movable equipment.