7 ms·

Is racial profiling actually considered racism? I thought it was its own category because it's not a form of prejudice, but instead refers to the use of race b

Is racial profiling actually considered racism? I thought it was its own category because it's not a form of prejudice, but instead refers to the use of race based statistical reasoning. I'd rather we keep the line drawn. and not muddy the racist card. e.g. RacialProfilistDoor is more apt

PhasmaFelis 9y ago
Being harassed for no reason except the color of your skin is equally harmful whether it's down to white-supremacist politics or cold statistics.
- hasenj 9y ago
  What if you also dress and behave like a drug dealer?
  - untog 9y ago
    I think you might be surprised by how often your perception of what a drug dealer looks like and behaves like is incorrect. But still, let's assume you can reliably see this things: sure! It's very reasonable to suspect someone who is acting shady. Because there is likely a reason why they are acting shady. Race doesn't work like that, and that's why it's different. A black person didn't wake up in the morning and decide to dress or act in some way that makes some people suspicious of them. They had no choice in the matter - just simply existing is enough to make you a suspect in some people's eyes.
    - hasenj 9y ago
      I did not mean to imply that only black people act shady. BUT, if someone who looks very suspicious based on their appearance and behaviour (mannerisms, language, choices of clothes, tattoos, etc) it's normal and dare I say _healthy_ for residential (family type) neighborhoods to be suspicious of them. If they also happen to be black, they might want to use the race card "OMG You suspect me because I'm black? Racist! How dare You!" etc, but who cares. I am honestly surprised by the down votes my comment received. If you let criminals into your neighbourhood because you're scared of being called a racist, something is wrong with you.
      - shifter 9y ago
        Yep, I wouldn’t want these folks as neighbors. Pattern matching is common sense and the safety of your family/self and your property trumps strangers’ feelings.
        FireBeyond 9y ago
        Yeah, well, guess what? If they're your neighbors, they have as much right to live in peace as you and your family do. And if you have an issue with (as the parent you agreed with) their language, clothing choices, tattoos, then frankly, you need to do something about it - and "encouraging people to keep a watch on them", calling the police for suspicious behavior (where "suspicious" is this vague hand-wavy synonym for "I don't like them") is not it. And trying this emotional appeal to "well, my family's safety is more important than some rando's feelings" (your exact words) is BS caging your words. Maybe you should move then? Much as you'd like them to move, and are trying to make it uncomfortable for them to be around. Hint: you have no more right to be there than your neighbors do. And lest you suggest that maybe I need to be exposed to more mental illness, violence, sociopathy or otherwise, like you say you have, to come to a 'better' understanding / enlightenment, well... I deal with all those things, all the time, working in EMS as well as IT.
        PhasmaFelis 9y ago
        > Yep, I wouldn’t want these folks as neighbors. Which folks? The ones who dress funny and have tattoos? We don't want you as neighbors either. The difference is that I don't call the cops when I don't like the way my neighbors dress.
      - dcole2929 9y ago
        The problem is how you define acting shady. If you're definition is people of one demographic generally dress this way therefore I think it's suspect you have an issue. If you're definition is someone who doesn't dress or act the way you, or the people around you do, again you have a problem. Also let's keep in mind that this is the safest the world has ever been especially in America meaning statistically if you're assuming someone is up to no good based on their appearance or dress you are almost guaranteed to be wrong.
  - smt88 9y ago
    How do drug dealers dress and behave? Do they wear shirts that say they're drug dealers?
    - DenisM 9y ago
      Funny you’d mention that. I saw a guy near the Seattle’s famous Pike Place market wearing a T-shirt with a sign “I sell the best weed in town” or something very close to that. If you walked buy he would offer weed with the warmest and most genuine smile. And that was before legalization.
    - hasenj 9y ago
      Like they don't care about community. Like they don't care about the law. Making loud noises. Dressing strange but flashy. I don't know. Are you going to pretend like there are no way for people to act suspicious now?
      - g-clef 9y ago
        Those aren't drug dealers (I've met a few, they didn't act like that...either that or I only met the really boring drug dealers). The only place you see "drug dealers" acting like that is tv/movies. "Suspicious" is walking up to the front door of your house and checking if it's locked. It's walking into your backyard without permission. It's looking in the windows of your house without permission. It's checking the doors on your car to see if they're unlocked. I'll even grant you that suspicious could be hanging out in a running car in front of an empty house for 30 minutes or so. However, it's not dressing flashy and being loud. (Though feel free to call the cops if they're being super-loud at 1am in a residential area. That's just rude.) If your definition of "suspicious" includes "this person doesn't act like me" with a dollop of "this person acts like the cartoon black people I see in movies", then you should absolutely be prepared to be called out.
        seabird 9y ago
        You have only met really boring drug dealers. I have come across plenty of them, and only the rural and disconnected suburban operations try to fly under the radar. When you're close enough to a fairly large city, the operation running that show is usually a lot more bold/brash, and their equally brazen subsidiaries will reach out into the suburbs and rural areas. This is where things start to get extremely obvious. I'm not sure if it's because inner-city police resources are allocated toward crimes other than drug dealing, or the drug dealers don't have an understanding of what will incriminate them/draw suspicion, but you definitely know when they're working the area.
  - ceejayoz 9y ago
    What does a drug dealer dress and behave like?
    - jimbo999 9y ago
      depends on what kinds of drugs they are selling in my experience, color of their skin is irrelevant for the most part
      - dredmorbius 9y ago
        I'd suspect it depends far more on how their clientelle dress. And that the dealer aims for just a shade higher. As do most salespeople.
    - usrusr 9y ago
      The attire of actual drug dealers is irrelevant, what matters is the imaginary drug dealer dress code in the minds of the public. One of the more subtle forms of privilege is that some groups have more "freedom of fashion" than others. Richard Branson can do "a very expensive version of whatever the Dude wears in The Big Lebowski", because there are cultural stereotypes available to him to play with that are unavailable to other skin tones. Likewise, a white person wearing impeccable business in the wrong environment will evoke the worst of wallstreet, whereas a black person wearing the same would be comfortably grounded in a proud tradition of dressing upward.
  - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
    I've known several drug dealers. Some of them were assholes, but they all dressed and behaved very much like normal people. They were all white, though. Perhaps it's only the black drug dealers who dress up special, eh?
  - 0xfeba 9y ago
    What, like in Law & Order?
smt88 9y ago
Racial profiling is 100% prejudice -- pre-judgment based on race alone. There isn't a universal definition of racism, but racial profiling is certainly a historical tool of racists and racist policies.
WhitneyLand 9y ago
It’s true that making decisions based on statistical risk is different from people acting out of hate. Indeed, it can be seductive to people with a basic understandinge of math that data driven decisions should be more fair minded. But the devil is in the details. It’s famously easy to make bad decisions based on “flawless” calculations that simply don’t interpret data right or don’t take all factors into consideration. Statistics is known for this peril even in mundane business situations, but with problems that are controversial, and affect people’s lives, it’s even more perilous. Here basic profiling would tell me you are male, correct? Did you know people like you commit 99% of murder and violent crime? Can you really blame me for crossing to the other side of the street if I see you walking toward me at night?
- somecontext 9y ago
  > Here basic profiling would tell me you are male, correct? Did you know people like you commit 99% of murder and violent crime? In case anyone was curious, the United States Bureau of Justice Statistics believes that men are responsible for ~90% of murders and ~80% of violent crime (in the US).
  - WhitneyLand 9y ago
    Thank you for the correction. I knew it was way up there but was just trying to recall off the top of my head.
- shifter 9y ago
  I don’t think it’s a bad idea to profile men, especially based on whatever signals they’re sending via dress/appearance, gait, etc. Cross the street! Safety is more important than a stranger’s feelings of acceptance and comfort. This is common sense.
wpietri 9y ago
Oh, all these people on NextDoor have carefully built validated statistical models based on clean, individually gathered data? Tell me more. Because if not, this sounds like a fancy way to dress up racial prejudice.
- KekDemaga 9y ago
  >Oh, all these people on NextDoor have carefully built validated statistical models based on clean, individually gathered data? Take a look at FBI crime statistics by race and gender sometime. Witnessing a Asian woman committing a property or violent crime is statistically speaking like winning the lottery. If I was to assess the risk of an Asian woman walking down the street I'd rate the risk as lower than any other demographic group, is that racist and sexist?
  - wpietri 9y ago
    Oh, of course your name has "kek" in it. If you treat people negatively because of their race, yes, that's racist.
    - KekDemaga 9y ago
      So I can assume that you don't support affirmative action?
      - wpietri 9y ago
        Why don't we just skip your half-assed white supremacist gotchas.
        KekDemaga 9y ago
        I'm Chinese. You seem to be a victim of your own prejudice.
        wpietri 9y ago
dredmorbius 9y ago
That seems to me to fall well within the umbra of "Discrimination or prejudice based on race." http://www.wordnik.com/words/racism http://www.wordnik.com/words/racism
- zo1 9y ago
  Sure, but definitions aside, are we fine with it? I'm fine with it. I think there is a perfectly reasonable distinction between being cautious and wary of individuals based on statistical evidence (including race/gender/age/dress/demeanor), and treating them differently once you start interacting with them. I.e. Every individual I talk to has a fresh, blank slate with me. Stereotypes and "profiling" only really apply until you start getting a concrete instance of said group, and deal with them in getting "fresh" data that is unique to them.

PhasmaFelis 9y ago

Being harassed for no reason except the color of your skin is equally harmful whether it's down to white-supremacist politics or cold statistics.

hasenj 9y ago
What if you also dress and behave like a drug dealer?
- untog 9y ago
  I think you might be surprised by how often your perception of what a drug dealer looks like and behaves like is incorrect. But still, let's assume you can reliably see this things: sure! It's very reasonable to suspect someone who is acting shady. Because there is likely a reason why they are acting shady. Race doesn't work like that, and that's why it's different. A black person didn't wake up in the morning and decide to dress or act in some way that makes some people suspicious of them. They had no choice in the matter - just simply existing is enough to make you a suspect in some people's eyes.
  - hasenj 9y ago
    I did not mean to imply that only black people act shady. BUT, if someone who looks very suspicious based on their appearance and behaviour (mannerisms, language, choices of clothes, tattoos, etc) it's normal and dare I say _healthy_ for residential (family type) neighborhoods to be suspicious of them. If they also happen to be black, they might want to use the race card "OMG You suspect me because I'm black? Racist! How dare You!" etc, but who cares. I am honestly surprised by the down votes my comment received. If you let criminals into your neighbourhood because you're scared of being called a racist, something is wrong with you.
    - shifter 9y ago
      Yep, I wouldn’t want these folks as neighbors. Pattern matching is common sense and the safety of your family/self and your property trumps strangers’ feelings.
      - FireBeyond 9y ago
        Yeah, well, guess what? If they're your neighbors, they have as much right to live in peace as you and your family do. And if you have an issue with (as the parent you agreed with) their language, clothing choices, tattoos, then frankly, you need to do something about it - and "encouraging people to keep a watch on them", calling the police for suspicious behavior (where "suspicious" is this vague hand-wavy synonym for "I don't like them") is not it. And trying this emotional appeal to "well, my family's safety is more important than some rando's feelings" (your exact words) is BS caging your words. Maybe you should move then? Much as you'd like them to move, and are trying to make it uncomfortable for them to be around. Hint: you have no more right to be there than your neighbors do. And lest you suggest that maybe I need to be exposed to more mental illness, violence, sociopathy or otherwise, like you say you have, to come to a 'better' understanding / enlightenment, well... I deal with all those things, all the time, working in EMS as well as IT.
      - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
        > Yep, I wouldn’t want these folks as neighbors. Which folks? The ones who dress funny and have tattoos? We don't want you as neighbors either. The difference is that I don't call the cops when I don't like the way my neighbors dress.
    - dcole2929 9y ago
      The problem is how you define acting shady. If you're definition is people of one demographic generally dress this way therefore I think it's suspect you have an issue. If you're definition is someone who doesn't dress or act the way you, or the people around you do, again you have a problem. Also let's keep in mind that this is the safest the world has ever been especially in America meaning statistically if you're assuming someone is up to no good based on their appearance or dress you are almost guaranteed to be wrong.
- smt88 9y ago
  How do drug dealers dress and behave? Do they wear shirts that say they're drug dealers?
  - DenisM 9y ago
    Funny you’d mention that. I saw a guy near the Seattle’s famous Pike Place market wearing a T-shirt with a sign “I sell the best weed in town” or something very close to that. If you walked buy he would offer weed with the warmest and most genuine smile. And that was before legalization.
  - hasenj 9y ago
    Like they don't care about community. Like they don't care about the law. Making loud noises. Dressing strange but flashy. I don't know. Are you going to pretend like there are no way for people to act suspicious now?
    - g-clef 9y ago
      Those aren't drug dealers (I've met a few, they didn't act like that...either that or I only met the really boring drug dealers). The only place you see "drug dealers" acting like that is tv/movies. "Suspicious" is walking up to the front door of your house and checking if it's locked. It's walking into your backyard without permission. It's looking in the windows of your house without permission. It's checking the doors on your car to see if they're unlocked. I'll even grant you that suspicious could be hanging out in a running car in front of an empty house for 30 minutes or so. However, it's not dressing flashy and being loud. (Though feel free to call the cops if they're being super-loud at 1am in a residential area. That's just rude.) If your definition of "suspicious" includes "this person doesn't act like me" with a dollop of "this person acts like the cartoon black people I see in movies", then you should absolutely be prepared to be called out.
      - seabird 9y ago
        You have only met really boring drug dealers. I have come across plenty of them, and only the rural and disconnected suburban operations try to fly under the radar. When you're close enough to a fairly large city, the operation running that show is usually a lot more bold/brash, and their equally brazen subsidiaries will reach out into the suburbs and rural areas. This is where things start to get extremely obvious. I'm not sure if it's because inner-city police resources are allocated toward crimes other than drug dealing, or the drug dealers don't have an understanding of what will incriminate them/draw suspicion, but you definitely know when they're working the area.
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  What does a drug dealer dress and behave like?
  - jimbo999 9y ago
    depends on what kinds of drugs they are selling in my experience, color of their skin is irrelevant for the most part
    - dredmorbius 9y ago
      I'd suspect it depends far more on how their clientelle dress. And that the dealer aims for just a shade higher. As do most salespeople.
  - usrusr 9y ago
    The attire of actual drug dealers is irrelevant, what matters is the imaginary drug dealer dress code in the minds of the public. One of the more subtle forms of privilege is that some groups have more "freedom of fashion" than others. Richard Branson can do "a very expensive version of whatever the Dude wears in The Big Lebowski", because there are cultural stereotypes available to him to play with that are unavailable to other skin tones. Likewise, a white person wearing impeccable business in the wrong environment will evoke the worst of wallstreet, whereas a black person wearing the same would be comfortably grounded in a proud tradition of dressing upward.
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  I've known several drug dealers. Some of them were assholes, but they all dressed and behaved very much like normal people. They were all white, though. Perhaps it's only the black drug dealers who dress up special, eh?
- 0xfeba 9y ago
  What, like in Law & Order?

smt88 9y ago

Racial profiling is 100% prejudice -- pre-judgment based on race alone. There isn't a universal definition of racism, but racial profiling is certainly a historical tool of racists and racist policies.

WhitneyLand 9y ago

It’s true that making decisions based on statistical risk is different from people acting out of hate. Indeed, it can be seductive to people with a basic understandinge of math that data driven decisions should be more fair minded. But the devil is in the details. It’s famously easy to make bad decisions based on “flawless” calculations that simply don’t interpret data right or don’t take all factors into consideration. Statistics is known for this peril even in mundane business situations, but with problems that are controversial, and affect people’s lives, it’s even more perilous. Here basic profiling would tell me you are male, correct? Did you know people like you commit 99% of murder and violent crime? Can you really blame me for crossing to the other side of the street if I see you walking toward me at night?

somecontext 9y ago
> Here basic profiling would tell me you are male, correct? Did you know people like you commit 99% of murder and violent crime? In case anyone was curious, the United States Bureau of Justice Statistics believes that men are responsible for ~90% of murders and ~80% of violent crime (in the US).
- WhitneyLand 9y ago
  Thank you for the correction. I knew it was way up there but was just trying to recall off the top of my head.
shifter 9y ago
I don’t think it’s a bad idea to profile men, especially based on whatever signals they’re sending via dress/appearance, gait, etc. Cross the street! Safety is more important than a stranger’s feelings of acceptance and comfort. This is common sense.

wpietri 9y ago

Oh, all these people on NextDoor have carefully built validated statistical models based on clean, individually gathered data? Tell me more. Because if not, this sounds like a fancy way to dress up racial prejudice.

KekDemaga 9y ago
>Oh, all these people on NextDoor have carefully built validated statistical models based on clean, individually gathered data? Take a look at FBI crime statistics by race and gender sometime. Witnessing a Asian woman committing a property or violent crime is statistically speaking like winning the lottery. If I was to assess the risk of an Asian woman walking down the street I'd rate the risk as lower than any other demographic group, is that racist and sexist?
- wpietri 9y ago
  Oh, of course your name has "kek" in it. If you treat people negatively because of their race, yes, that's racist.
  - KekDemaga 9y ago
    So I can assume that you don't support affirmative action?
    - wpietri 9y ago
      Why don't we just skip your half-assed white supremacist gotchas.
      - KekDemaga 9y ago
        I'm Chinese. You seem to be a victim of your own prejudice.
        wpietri 9y ago

dredmorbius 9y ago

That seems to me to fall well within the umbra of "Discrimination or prejudice based on race." http://www.wordnik.com/words/racism http://www.wordnik.com/words/racism

zo1 9y ago
Sure, but definitions aside, are we fine with it? I'm fine with it. I think there is a perfectly reasonable distinction between being cautious and wary of individuals based on statistical evidence (including race/gender/age/dress/demeanor), and treating them differently once you start interacting with them. I.e. Every individual I talk to has a fresh, blank slate with me. Stereotypes and "profiling" only really apply until you start getting a concrete instance of said group, and deal with them in getting "fresh" data that is unique to them.