7 ms·

I want to be cynical because I hate the idea that a gadget has to have "jewel" in the name and be a fancy "friendship bracelet" to appeal to girls. But it's a n

I want to be cynical because I hate the idea that a gadget has to have "jewel" in the name and be a fancy "friendship bracelet" to appeal to girls. But it's a neat little trinket that somebody worked hard on, and if it really was a young woman who designed it to enjoy with their friends, I can't really hold that against them. I don't think scaring away guys from it by saying it's "for girls" is doing them any favors though. Thinking back though, one gadget I remember being very appealing to kids of both sexes was Tamagotchi. It would be cool if someone made a more customizeable/programmable/less annoying version those in a wearable format.

jff 9y ago
Yeah, with a different 'face', I think boys would think this was cool too. I know 9 year old me though 'secret codes' were very cool, so I'd have probably been into it.
sarajo 9y ago
Hi! We talked to over 200 girls when making this product, rest assured that every design decision was made with their feedback in mind. Boys also love playing with Jewelbots, but there are already a lot of coding toys aimed at boys!!! Our market primarily identifies as female, but we'll broaden down the road.
- sudosteph 9y ago
  I think this is where we disagree a little. I don't think most coding toys actually are mostly aimed at boys. How would that even work? Do they require a Y chromosome to operate or something? They're just marketed to boys (and parents of boys), and parents and children alike buy in. The toy market today is highly segregated in marketing to boys vs girls, and toys that were not specifically "gendered" in the past are in the "Boys" section today (or sometimes vice versa). For example, I know that when I was a kid I hated that any trip to McD's included me awkwardly going up to the front counter to exchange for the "boy" toys because I thought windup toys were more fun than dolls or pink bracelets or whatever. My favorite toys were things like beyblades, zoids, k'nex you know, things that I could build with and would move. I was never not a girl for finding toys marketed to boys as more fun. I just knew that the toys that were in the "boys" section were more stimulating to me (and my sister felt the same too). I was lucky enough to have parents who didn't care, but some do and it just creates a cycle where girls say they prefer things that are targeted to girls (as opposed to the large number of toys that are only marketed to boys), and market researchers see that success and double-down, just making more stereotypically "girly" toys that sell to that defined market segment instead of making more gender-neutral toys with more inclusive ads (because they're afraid that advertising to girls will scare off boys). So that's my concern here. I'm glad that girls and boys alike love jewelbots already, but do fear that explicitly saying that they are "for girls" will implicitly give credence to the idea that other toys are "for boys". As engineers we should not promote the idea that science toys without sparkles or pink on them are for boys, it should just be for kids. It limits the range of creative exploration available to girls who are trying to learn both science, and who they are and what conforming to social pressure allows if you tell them that they need to like girl oriented toys b/c everything else is for boys.
  - rtpg 9y ago
    I think you're both actually agreeing. The other coding toys are marketed towards boys ("aimed at boys"). That means that it's less likely for girls to get exposed to them overall, because media aimed at them is different, teacher's behavior towards them is different, even their own parents' behavior towards them is different. I get that marketing "for girls" might give credence to the "for boys" marketing... but if you look at the jewelbots page, the only point that is explicitly "girls" is the fact that the kids in the pictures are girls. Everything else has been brought in by us. The "jewel = girls" aspect, the "friendship bracelet = girls" aspect... though some other media is even more pointed at that. Bit mixed feelings about it. I feel like it's trying to operate within the weird gender divide that exists in our society
    - sudosteph 9y ago
      Oh, I definitely think we're more in agreement than disagreement and am happy this product exists. But you're right that the crux of my argument hangs on explicit "for girls" implying other toys as "for boys" The reason I interpreted the "for girls" thing as explicit because: 1. When I first clicked the link, the HN title did say "for girls" in the title. It was edited by the time I had submitted my comment. 2. The GMA quote featured on the page advertises it as "One of the Smartest Gadgets for Girls" 3. The quote saying " Jewelbots serves girls. The future scientists, lawyers, mothers, doctors, and engineers of the world." at the bottom of the page. 4. The creator saying that other code toys were aimed at boys (which I agree could be a comment on the adverstising, but I took as a comment on the design of the toys). Because I took "for girls" as an explicit design consideration for the reasons above, I also assumed that the "jewel" and "friendship bracelet" aspects were design choices to explicitly appeal to girls, rather than just parts of the toy that girls happen to like more than boys on average. I would be happy to be wrong on this though. I just struggle to see how this changes the narrative of science/engineering toys for girls needing to be overtly feminine-themed while most functionally equivalent toys without those aspects are assumed to be for boys. Perhaps I'm not in tune with the market well enough, but I struggle to identify equivalently overtly-masculine themed coding toys from companies who say their mission is to help boys.
- _eht 9y ago
  Care to expand on which toys are made with only boys in mind?
- dogruck 9y ago
  I was at a conference this weekend. A female grade school teacher, at a private school, tried to explain to me how "girls brains are wired differently from boys" and therefore "we need to teach girls to be more like boys." I am open minded. I've met and worked with women who are just as strong or stronger than men. I don't understand how we can simultaneously argue that men and women are fundamentally different but should also be made to be the same. Back to the thread, why wouldn't a boy want to play with this new toy? Or wear pink?
  - sarajo 9y ago
    Hi! That grade school teacher needs a few more science lessons. We have lots of users that identify as male. Boys love Jewelbots, two weeks ago at an event a boy came up to me after to tell me "this was more fun than coding Minecraft". Best compliment in a while.
    - ThomPete 9y ago
      Identify as or are boys biologically?
      - jacalata 9y ago
        It would seem rude for a toy maker to be asking children for their gender as assigned at birth (which is what I assume you mean) so they probably don't know.
        sarajo 9y ago
        As general practice, I never ask people about their genitals.
        ThomPete 9y ago
        You don't have to ask about their genitals but given you claim boys like jewelbots (which they very well might do) I think it's pretty relevent to understand whether those are biological boys or simply biological girls identifying as boys. One would be less interesting than the other. Here is why. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/12/the-astonishing-village-where-little-girls-turn-into-boys-aged-1/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/12/the-astonishin...
2muchcoffeeman 9y ago
Goldieblox does the same thing. Everything is stereotypically girly. You have to assume they did some research and that's what girls want.
- iak8god 9y ago
  What do girls want? (after being socialized for their entire young lives to only express and develop interests in traditionally "feminine" pursuits) might turn out to be a quite different question from What's the best way to encourage girls to see themselves as being equally capable as boys in technical areas?"
  - sudosteph 9y ago
    This x100. There seems to be a popular notion that "feminine" traits are innate and universal to people with a "feminine identity", rather than the product of culture with socialization that treats female people consistently differently than male people from birth. However if you think about things that prepare someone for technical success, so-called "feminine" traits like caring about your appearance more than is actually necessary (makeup and jewelry serve no real purpose and take time and money) or being uncomfortable with conflict (bias for cooperation vs competition, people seeing assertive women as aggressive) are not good things that will help you be equal to or surpass your male peers in technical pursuits. I can understand why it's uncomfortable to imply that the concept of "femininity" is not a positive one when it comes to tech (the creator of this probably disagrees with my assesment). But I hope we can continue to question the validity of "feminine" social constructs while also creating products like this, which bridge the gap after socialization has taken its toll.
    - sarajo 9y ago
      Hi! I wrote all about this, you can read my thoughts here. https://medium.com/thelist/papas-please-let-your-babies-grow-up-to-be-princesses-7dc7c2ec7cd2 https://medium.com/thelist/papas-please-let-your-babies-grow...
ringaroundthetx 9y ago
I actually like the idea that the gadget is positioned for "women in tech" without being about "women in tech". Last thing we need is another one of those panels, in lieu of what the individuals actually built or did.
- sarajo 9y ago
  lol, women in tech panels are the WORST.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
asusBsus 9y ago
I hear you. If you think of it as a way to appeal to feminine girls instead of all girls, it makes more sense. I know gender neutral coding toys already exist, but I think there's room (and a place) for super feminine ones too! Whenever I have to buy a kid a present, I try to aim for the fun yet educational toys, regardless of which gender its marketed to, but not everyone does that. I know people who will buy a random pink toy from the girls' toy aisle if they need a present for a girl, regardless what it is. Its pink, so it must be appropriate for a girl. The present giver feels like they did their job. I think the mere existence of feminine coding toys will increase the chances of girls ending up with any sort of coding toy, which is the goal, right?
intoverflow2 9y ago
Technology Will Save Us ship a similar product that is more gender neutral if anyone is interested. Actually think in this space the norm is actively going gender neutral.
wmeredith 9y ago
Do you have a daughter? Girls like girly shit. It's nice that they don't have to, but they usually do.

jff 9y ago

Yeah, with a different 'face', I think boys would think this was cool too. I know 9 year old me though 'secret codes' were very cool, so I'd have probably been into it.

sarajo 9y ago

Hi! We talked to over 200 girls when making this product, rest assured that every design decision was made with their feedback in mind. Boys also love playing with Jewelbots, but there are already a lot of coding toys aimed at boys!!! Our market primarily identifies as female, but we'll broaden down the road.

sudosteph 9y ago
I think this is where we disagree a little. I don't think most coding toys actually are mostly aimed at boys. How would that even work? Do they require a Y chromosome to operate or something? They're just marketed to boys (and parents of boys), and parents and children alike buy in. The toy market today is highly segregated in marketing to boys vs girls, and toys that were not specifically "gendered" in the past are in the "Boys" section today (or sometimes vice versa). For example, I know that when I was a kid I hated that any trip to McD's included me awkwardly going up to the front counter to exchange for the "boy" toys because I thought windup toys were more fun than dolls or pink bracelets or whatever. My favorite toys were things like beyblades, zoids, k'nex you know, things that I could build with and would move. I was never not a girl for finding toys marketed to boys as more fun. I just knew that the toys that were in the "boys" section were more stimulating to me (and my sister felt the same too). I was lucky enough to have parents who didn't care, but some do and it just creates a cycle where girls say they prefer things that are targeted to girls (as opposed to the large number of toys that are only marketed to boys), and market researchers see that success and double-down, just making more stereotypically "girly" toys that sell to that defined market segment instead of making more gender-neutral toys with more inclusive ads (because they're afraid that advertising to girls will scare off boys). So that's my concern here. I'm glad that girls and boys alike love jewelbots already, but do fear that explicitly saying that they are "for girls" will implicitly give credence to the idea that other toys are "for boys". As engineers we should not promote the idea that science toys without sparkles or pink on them are for boys, it should just be for kids. It limits the range of creative exploration available to girls who are trying to learn both science, and who they are and what conforming to social pressure allows if you tell them that they need to like girl oriented toys b/c everything else is for boys.
- rtpg 9y ago
  I think you're both actually agreeing. The other coding toys are marketed towards boys ("aimed at boys"). That means that it's less likely for girls to get exposed to them overall, because media aimed at them is different, teacher's behavior towards them is different, even their own parents' behavior towards them is different. I get that marketing "for girls" might give credence to the "for boys" marketing... but if you look at the jewelbots page, the only point that is explicitly "girls" is the fact that the kids in the pictures are girls. Everything else has been brought in by us. The "jewel = girls" aspect, the "friendship bracelet = girls" aspect... though some other media is even more pointed at that. Bit mixed feelings about it. I feel like it's trying to operate within the weird gender divide that exists in our society
  - sudosteph 9y ago
    Oh, I definitely think we're more in agreement than disagreement and am happy this product exists. But you're right that the crux of my argument hangs on explicit "for girls" implying other toys as "for boys" The reason I interpreted the "for girls" thing as explicit because: 1. When I first clicked the link, the HN title did say "for girls" in the title. It was edited by the time I had submitted my comment. 2. The GMA quote featured on the page advertises it as "One of the Smartest Gadgets for Girls" 3. The quote saying " Jewelbots serves girls. The future scientists, lawyers, mothers, doctors, and engineers of the world." at the bottom of the page. 4. The creator saying that other code toys were aimed at boys (which I agree could be a comment on the adverstising, but I took as a comment on the design of the toys). Because I took "for girls" as an explicit design consideration for the reasons above, I also assumed that the "jewel" and "friendship bracelet" aspects were design choices to explicitly appeal to girls, rather than just parts of the toy that girls happen to like more than boys on average. I would be happy to be wrong on this though. I just struggle to see how this changes the narrative of science/engineering toys for girls needing to be overtly feminine-themed while most functionally equivalent toys without those aspects are assumed to be for boys. Perhaps I'm not in tune with the market well enough, but I struggle to identify equivalently overtly-masculine themed coding toys from companies who say their mission is to help boys.
_eht 9y ago
Care to expand on which toys are made with only boys in mind?
dogruck 9y ago
I was at a conference this weekend. A female grade school teacher, at a private school, tried to explain to me how "girls brains are wired differently from boys" and therefore "we need to teach girls to be more like boys." I am open minded. I've met and worked with women who are just as strong or stronger than men. I don't understand how we can simultaneously argue that men and women are fundamentally different but should also be made to be the same. Back to the thread, why wouldn't a boy want to play with this new toy? Or wear pink?
- sarajo 9y ago
  Hi! That grade school teacher needs a few more science lessons. We have lots of users that identify as male. Boys love Jewelbots, two weeks ago at an event a boy came up to me after to tell me "this was more fun than coding Minecraft". Best compliment in a while.
  - ThomPete 9y ago
    Identify as or are boys biologically?
    - jacalata 9y ago
      It would seem rude for a toy maker to be asking children for their gender as assigned at birth (which is what I assume you mean) so they probably don't know.
      - sarajo 9y ago
        As general practice, I never ask people about their genitals.
        ThomPete 9y ago
        You don't have to ask about their genitals but given you claim boys like jewelbots (which they very well might do) I think it's pretty relevent to understand whether those are biological boys or simply biological girls identifying as boys. One would be less interesting than the other. Here is why. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/12/the-astonishing-village-where-little-girls-turn-into-boys-aged-1/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/12/the-astonishin...

2muchcoffeeman 9y ago

Goldieblox does the same thing. Everything is stereotypically girly. You have to assume they did some research and that's what girls want.

iak8god 9y ago
What do girls want? (after being socialized for their entire young lives to only express and develop interests in traditionally "feminine" pursuits) might turn out to be a quite different question from What's the best way to encourage girls to see themselves as being equally capable as boys in technical areas?"
- sudosteph 9y ago
  This x100. There seems to be a popular notion that "feminine" traits are innate and universal to people with a "feminine identity", rather than the product of culture with socialization that treats female people consistently differently than male people from birth. However if you think about things that prepare someone for technical success, so-called "feminine" traits like caring about your appearance more than is actually necessary (makeup and jewelry serve no real purpose and take time and money) or being uncomfortable with conflict (bias for cooperation vs competition, people seeing assertive women as aggressive) are not good things that will help you be equal to or surpass your male peers in technical pursuits. I can understand why it's uncomfortable to imply that the concept of "femininity" is not a positive one when it comes to tech (the creator of this probably disagrees with my assesment). But I hope we can continue to question the validity of "feminine" social constructs while also creating products like this, which bridge the gap after socialization has taken its toll.
  - sarajo 9y ago
    Hi! I wrote all about this, you can read my thoughts here. https://medium.com/thelist/papas-please-let-your-babies-grow-up-to-be-princesses-7dc7c2ec7cd2 https://medium.com/thelist/papas-please-let-your-babies-grow...

ringaroundthetx 9y ago

I actually like the idea that the gadget is positioned for "women in tech" without being about "women in tech". Last thing we need is another one of those panels, in lieu of what the individuals actually built or did.

sarajo 9y ago
lol, women in tech panels are the WORST.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

asusBsus 9y ago

I hear you. If you think of it as a way to appeal to feminine girls instead of all girls, it makes more sense. I know gender neutral coding toys already exist, but I think there's room (and a place) for super feminine ones too! Whenever I have to buy a kid a present, I try to aim for the fun yet educational toys, regardless of which gender its marketed to, but not everyone does that. I know people who will buy a random pink toy from the girls' toy aisle if they need a present for a girl, regardless what it is. Its pink, so it must be appropriate for a girl. The present giver feels like they did their job. I think the mere existence of feminine coding toys will increase the chances of girls ending up with any sort of coding toy, which is the goal, right?

intoverflow2 9y ago

Technology Will Save Us ship a similar product that is more gender neutral if anyone is interested. Actually think in this space the norm is actively going gender neutral.

wmeredith 9y ago

Do you have a daughter? Girls like girly shit. It's nice that they don't have to, but they usually do.