7 ms·

Yes. They also rewrite stuff half way through and tell you it's the same project just to piss you off. Windows Workflow and Windows Communication Foundation for

by cjsuk 9y ago

Yes. They also rewrite stuff half way through and tell you it's the same project just to piss you off. Windows Workflow and Windows Communication Foundation for example. I'm really disinclined to invest in any of their technology because my headspace is finite and I want to deliver business value, not change the unworn carpets once a year.

dtx1 9y ago
It's also just such a bad idea because they never get to mature their features, add uniqueness or allow 3rd party devs to build the ecosystem. They just build the same thing over and over again while their competitors keep refining, innovating and adding features. Really a bound to fail strategy
- cjsuk 9y ago
  Exactly that. The feedback loop is shit as well. Out falls a broken pile of shit for a CTP. No one accepts any feedback. It hits RTM, no one accepts any feedback. Two years down the line, the same bugs are open. You should hear the partner reps wanting to cry when you report a bug in something that you NEED a fix for and are paying support for. You get fuck all other than a registry fix or a hack even if the mainline product is falling to bits across a thousand or so users (which is what happened to us). Money where the mouth is as well. Typical shit: https://github.com/Microsoft/SCVMMLinuxGuestAgent/issues/2 https://github.com/Microsoft/SCVMMLinuxGuestAgent/issues/2 -> ignored. Regularly hoses our new VMs deploying windows on SCVMM. https://github.com/dotnet/cli/issues/3093 https://github.com/dotnet/cli/issues/3093 -> fuck you go away we're just going to take your data unless you set a magic variable even though no one wants to give it away as indicated by the ticket and there are bugs in the configuration and it causes people massive audit problems.
  - dtx1 9y ago
    From the second ticket > It's only a matter of time before some enterprising journalist looking for a scoop picks up on this. The headlines here are not good: "Microsoft caught with sneaky program to spy on companies" Let me take care of that... Edit: Wrote several of germanys biggest tech sites with focus on dataprotection aswell as the german ministry for cyber security with a link to that ticket. Let's see what happens
    - cjsuk 9y ago
      Good work - thank you :)
    - justinclift 9y ago
      Excellent, hopefully something positive comes from it. :) On a similar note if they get back to you, Mozilla is testing the waters with dumb privacy invasion stuff in Germany soon too: https://www.ghacks.net/2017/10/06/mozilla-to-launch-firefox-cliqz-experiment-with-data-collecting/ https://www.ghacks.net/2017/10/06/mozilla-to-launch-firefox-... They're probably across that already though, but if not it might be useful to point out to them. :)
    - uniformlyrandom 9y ago
      You do undrrstand thus is a one year old issue in a pre-release of .net core 1 (current version is 2.0)? The issue is well documented and explained: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/telemetry https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/telemetry I applaud your vigilance, but you are a bit late.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- mixmastamyk 9y ago
  Maybe MS and the FLOSS world aren’t as different as we thought. Look up CADT by Zawinski for details.
  - cjsuk 9y ago
    Difference is I’m not paying them. We pay Microsoft a metric fuck load of money.
emodendroket 9y ago
Most of the legacy stuff continues working long after it's the hot new thing, though.
- cjsuk 9y ago
  Until you hit a bug. The one that killed us was we had to deploy a registry fix to 2000 workstations at hundreds of companies because they broke ClickOnce in IE9 and later. It still isn't fixed today. We still have to eat the administrative cost. Over time, that's a shit ton of cash leaked out on a mistake the vendor has made.
  - CharlesC 9y ago
    Clickonce is such garbage. I'm sorry I ever heard of it.
    - cjsuk 9y ago
      That too!
    - flukus 9y ago
      I can't believe an company so vested in the enterprise market can do such a terrible job of allowing companies to deploy enterprise software. Click once isn't supported in VS anymore, and was always horrible when it came to things like CI servers anyway. Windows 10 store requires running on azure which make it a no go, doesn't allow push updates anyway. The best options have always been third party ones like chocolatey or NSIS, but they are limited as well, chocolatey does not allow push based and NSIS is pretty weird. 19 years after the first release of apt-get and I'm still waiting for MS to give me something half as good.
      - cjsuk 9y ago
        Wix isn’t terrible. We use that for deploying two products. When I say not terrible it hides a lot of the design by committee ugliness of MSI packages. Have you looked at chocolatey as a total replacement for apt-get? If you havent, be prepared for eye gouging disappointment! :(
maxxxxx 9y ago
Same here. I can't even imagine how 3rd party tool developers feel. Let's say you have a grid component. In the last few years you had to do a Winforms and several XAML versions( WPF, WinRT, Silverlight and now UWP). The XAML look superficially the same but all have their set of weird limitations and bugs. I am definitely done with Windows desktop.
- bnolsen 9y ago
  Wow, imagine someone trying to make this statement 15 years ago...things have sure changed.
  - cjsuk 9y ago
    Indeed. 15 years ago I kind of enjoyed it. Win32/winforms is still less horrible than the web these days.
    - pcwalton 9y ago
      Win32 is in no way less horrible than the Web. Win32 doesn't have any device-independent layout, at all. Forget about handling HiDPI sensibly. RegisterClassEx/CreateWindowEx are incredibly verbose. WndProcs are a mess compared to individual event handlers. The mishmash of COM and inconsistently named C APIs is terrible. COM involves a monstrous amount of boilerplate. COM requires you to deal with apartment threading, legacy that exists primarily for compatibility with Visual Basic 6, which is of course no longer supported but still saddles the platform. Creating an OpenGL context with WGL, with the "false context" stuff, is a nightmare compared to WebGL. Memory management is a giant pain to deal with. The GDI APIs are archaic and slow. I could go on…
      - mobilio 9y ago
        Yeah... because compatibility here is MUST.
      - cjsuk 9y ago
        That sounds exactly like the state of affairs the moment you pick a JavaScript framework, which was my point.

by cjsuk 9y ago

dtx1 9y ago

It's also just such a bad idea because they never get to mature their features, add uniqueness or allow 3rd party devs to build the ecosystem. They just build the same thing over and over again while their competitors keep refining, innovating and adding features. Really a bound to fail strategy

cjsuk 9y ago
Exactly that. The feedback loop is shit as well. Out falls a broken pile of shit for a CTP. No one accepts any feedback. It hits RTM, no one accepts any feedback. Two years down the line, the same bugs are open. You should hear the partner reps wanting to cry when you report a bug in something that you NEED a fix for and are paying support for. You get fuck all other than a registry fix or a hack even if the mainline product is falling to bits across a thousand or so users (which is what happened to us). Money where the mouth is as well. Typical shit: https://github.com/Microsoft/SCVMMLinuxGuestAgent/issues/2 https://github.com/Microsoft/SCVMMLinuxGuestAgent/issues/2 -> ignored. Regularly hoses our new VMs deploying windows on SCVMM. https://github.com/dotnet/cli/issues/3093 https://github.com/dotnet/cli/issues/3093 -> fuck you go away we're just going to take your data unless you set a magic variable even though no one wants to give it away as indicated by the ticket and there are bugs in the configuration and it causes people massive audit problems.
- dtx1 9y ago
  From the second ticket > It's only a matter of time before some enterprising journalist looking for a scoop picks up on this. The headlines here are not good: "Microsoft caught with sneaky program to spy on companies" Let me take care of that... Edit: Wrote several of germanys biggest tech sites with focus on dataprotection aswell as the german ministry for cyber security with a link to that ticket. Let's see what happens
  - cjsuk 9y ago
    Good work - thank you :)
  - justinclift 9y ago
    Excellent, hopefully something positive comes from it. :) On a similar note if they get back to you, Mozilla is testing the waters with dumb privacy invasion stuff in Germany soon too: https://www.ghacks.net/2017/10/06/mozilla-to-launch-firefox-cliqz-experiment-with-data-collecting/ https://www.ghacks.net/2017/10/06/mozilla-to-launch-firefox-... They're probably across that already though, but if not it might be useful to point out to them. :)
  - uniformlyrandom 9y ago
    You do undrrstand thus is a one year old issue in a pre-release of .net core 1 (current version is 2.0)? The issue is well documented and explained: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/telemetry https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/telemetry I applaud your vigilance, but you are a bit late.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
mixmastamyk 9y ago
Maybe MS and the FLOSS world aren’t as different as we thought. Look up CADT by Zawinski for details.
- cjsuk 9y ago
  Difference is I’m not paying them. We pay Microsoft a metric fuck load of money.

emodendroket 9y ago

Most of the legacy stuff continues working long after it's the hot new thing, though.

cjsuk 9y ago
Until you hit a bug. The one that killed us was we had to deploy a registry fix to 2000 workstations at hundreds of companies because they broke ClickOnce in IE9 and later. It still isn't fixed today. We still have to eat the administrative cost. Over time, that's a shit ton of cash leaked out on a mistake the vendor has made.
- CharlesC 9y ago
  Clickonce is such garbage. I'm sorry I ever heard of it.
  - cjsuk 9y ago
    That too!
  - flukus 9y ago
    I can't believe an company so vested in the enterprise market can do such a terrible job of allowing companies to deploy enterprise software. Click once isn't supported in VS anymore, and was always horrible when it came to things like CI servers anyway. Windows 10 store requires running on azure which make it a no go, doesn't allow push updates anyway. The best options have always been third party ones like chocolatey or NSIS, but they are limited as well, chocolatey does not allow push based and NSIS is pretty weird. 19 years after the first release of apt-get and I'm still waiting for MS to give me something half as good.
    - cjsuk 9y ago
      Wix isn’t terrible. We use that for deploying two products. When I say not terrible it hides a lot of the design by committee ugliness of MSI packages. Have you looked at chocolatey as a total replacement for apt-get? If you havent, be prepared for eye gouging disappointment! :(

maxxxxx 9y ago

Same here. I can't even imagine how 3rd party tool developers feel. Let's say you have a grid component. In the last few years you had to do a Winforms and several XAML versions( WPF, WinRT, Silverlight and now UWP). The XAML look superficially the same but all have their set of weird limitations and bugs. I am definitely done with Windows desktop.

bnolsen 9y ago
Wow, imagine someone trying to make this statement 15 years ago...things have sure changed.
- cjsuk 9y ago
  Indeed. 15 years ago I kind of enjoyed it. Win32/winforms is still less horrible than the web these days.
  - pcwalton 9y ago
    Win32 is in no way less horrible than the Web. Win32 doesn't have any device-independent layout, at all. Forget about handling HiDPI sensibly. RegisterClassEx/CreateWindowEx are incredibly verbose. WndProcs are a mess compared to individual event handlers. The mishmash of COM and inconsistently named C APIs is terrible. COM involves a monstrous amount of boilerplate. COM requires you to deal with apartment threading, legacy that exists primarily for compatibility with Visual Basic 6, which is of course no longer supported but still saddles the platform. Creating an OpenGL context with WGL, with the "false context" stuff, is a nightmare compared to WebGL. Memory management is a giant pain to deal with. The GDI APIs are archaic and slow. I could go on…
    - mobilio 9y ago
      Yeah... because compatibility here is MUST.
    - cjsuk 9y ago
      That sounds exactly like the state of affairs the moment you pick a JavaScript framework, which was my point.