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Wasn't it _why who said that coding for the web is hard to get into because it requires 3 languages? (javascript, css, html; loosest definition of "language").

by joeyh 16y ago

Wasn't it _why who said that coding for the web is hard to get into because it requires 3 languages? (javascript, css, html; loosest definition of "language"). Plus understanding how they fit together; DOM etc. Plus portability. People didn't use IDEs with their BASIC in 1985, so your jump to IDEs may miss the point. But my 1983 BASIC interpreter let me draw a point or a diagonal line anywhere on the screen; all I had to know was how to get into graphics mode and how to specify coordinates. 2 lines of code. If you write the same thing in javascript+html+css, how many lines will it take you? In the meantime, at least there's http://logo.twentygototen.org/ http://logo.twentygototen.org/

yason 16y ago
Learning a modern IDE is more work than learning an 80's BASIC environment. The difference is that with the latter, I could write working programs and get stuff flying around the screen with minimal resistance. There's a lot of value in that simplicity that is still there somewhere but isn't generally accessible for anything "productive" by today's standards.
acqq 16y ago
Exactly, with the BASIC in my Spectrum (1984) I was able to draw over the whole screen in full resolution (at that time even the very "bitmapped" screens were novelty, other computers had special regime for drawings and another for letters -- Mac, who broke that, came only in 1984, PC users stopped using text modes only with Windows, which got popular only around 1990) -- one single statement to draw the line, one single statement to draw the circle... to put that in the loop you needed only two lines more, or you could even write it in the same line. And no special editor needed, you just type, press Enter, and the result appeared immediately. And no icons, no toolbars, title bars... Command, result. Or a few lines of program, result. Try now to draw something. Try to produce the sounds of notes with it. It was simple, now it's not, that's why it's not THAT. It's sad that it's so hard these days to do some basic stuff, like only a few typed words to draw something etc. Today even languages that should be simple aren't. Import libraries, reference modules, only to evaluate abs(-2)? Failure of modern language incarnations...
steveklabnik 16y ago
Just so you know... we put a Turtlescript DSL into Hackety Hack: http://github.com/hacketyhack/hacketyhack/blob/master/samples/turtle_barbwire.rb http://github.com/hacketyhack/hacketyhack/blob/master/sample...

by joeyh 16y ago

yason 16y ago

Learning a modern IDE is more work than learning an 80's BASIC environment. The difference is that with the latter, I could write working programs and get stuff flying around the screen with minimal resistance. There's a lot of value in that simplicity that is still there somewhere but isn't generally accessible for anything "productive" by today's standards.

acqq 16y ago

Exactly, with the BASIC in my Spectrum (1984) I was able to draw over the whole screen in full resolution (at that time even the very "bitmapped" screens were novelty, other computers had special regime for drawings and another for letters -- Mac, who broke that, came only in 1984, PC users stopped using text modes only with Windows, which got popular only around 1990) -- one single statement to draw the line, one single statement to draw the circle... to put that in the loop you needed only two lines more, or you could even write it in the same line. And no special editor needed, you just type, press Enter, and the result appeared immediately. And no icons, no toolbars, title bars... Command, result. Or a few lines of program, result. Try now to draw something. Try to produce the sounds of notes with it. It was simple, now it's not, that's why it's not THAT. It's sad that it's so hard these days to do some basic stuff, like only a few typed words to draw something etc. Today even languages that should be simple aren't. Import libraries, reference modules, only to evaluate abs(-2)? Failure of modern language incarnations...

steveklabnik 16y ago

Just so you know... we put a Turtlescript DSL into Hackety Hack: http://github.com/hacketyhack/hacketyhack/blob/master/samples/turtle_barbwire.rb http://github.com/hacketyhack/hacketyhack/blob/master/sample...