4 ms·

Having just moved to Germany the obsession with physical paperwork for various reasons is somewhat astounding.

freeflight 9y ago
A lot of this has to with legal definitions from a pre-digital time. Fax is considered a "secure transmission", so it's hold actual weight in the German law system. Emails? Not so much. Especiallly when working in healthcare this can be an immense logistical issue, shuffling paper prescriptions around between 3-5 parties ain't no fun and leads to prescriptions being lost in the process and a lot of beurocratic overhead.
- rjzzleep 9y ago
  It's a combination of both. Disclaimer IANAL I just tend to talk to them. Digital signatures by themselves only provide non repudiation of the sender non the receiver. When in court, you as a sender will have to prove that the receiver actually received the data. § 371 ZPO [1] When sending a Mail per Einschreiben, the receiver instead has to prove that he didnt in fact get the message. Why that also applies to FAX blows my mind though. AS4 and AS2 respectively solve this in a way, because the receipt is part of the protocol and successful transmission. From what I understand(I might be wrong) its traditionally used for EDI in supply chain systems [2]. Drummond certifies that your product supports the standard correctly some people make a lot of money and you're good to go(it's XML and SOAP though). Apparently the EU is looking at using it. Here's where the german bureaucracy ruins everything though. The law stated above mandates from what I understand(again IANAL) that you use DE-Mail for communication to flip the procedure stated above. DE-Mail requires the use of a trust center, a third party that receives the message and forwards it. The only other way to flip the evidence case is by using your own contract, which german lawyers avoid, because they might be liable in case something goes wrong. [1] https://dejure.org/gesetze/ZPO/371.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/ZPO/371.html [2] https://www.rssbus.com/mft/img/AS2-Diagram.png https://www.rssbus.com/mft/img/AS2-Diagram.png
  - Xylakant 9y ago
    > When sending a Mail per Einschreiben, the receiver instead has to prove that he didnt in fact get the message. Why that also applies to FAX blows my mind though. Fax has a built-in transmission protocol and the receiver confirms that the transmission succeeded.
biztos 9y ago
Germany requires a lot of high-touch interaction to get anything official done, but in Hungary I have to sign seven (seven!) pages in order to send a DHL letter. So it can be much worse. :-)
- robert_foss 9y ago
  When receiving packages from outside of the EU, you'll have the pleasure of going to the Zollamt in Germany. At the Zollamt you'll get to enjoy standing in at least 3 separate and consecutive lines. Only to pay import taxes. Something that could have been done faster, cheaper and more conveniently by sending an invoice.
  - kogepathic 9y ago
    > Something that could have been done faster, cheaper and more conveniently by sending an invoice. This is how it works if the seller fills out CN22 properly and the customs officials believe the declared contents/value. I have several times received packages with duties that I paid on delivery. No need to travel to the Zollamt. I have also been to the Zollamt when they suspect the package contains something else than what is on the shipping manifest. They're always quite giddy to catch you doing something not allowed and always end up terribly disappointed and grumpy when it's exactly as described and then you just pay VAT.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- alt2501 9y ago
  That's awesome. Love the process.
tnolet 9y ago
As a Dutch person living and working in Berlin for some years now I can confirm the astounding gap between the state of digital banking between two wealthy neighbouring countries. The Dutch are practically light years ahead of the Germans on this one. This I say as a consumer and having worked in Dutch banking IT for 10 years.
- robert_foss 9y ago
  This exactly what I'm experiencing too. Just moved to Berlin, and have lived in Canada && Sweden previously.

A lot of this has to with legal definitions from a pre-digital time. Fax is considered a "secure transmission", so it's hold actual weight in the German law system. Emails? Not so much. Especiallly when working in healthcare this can be an immense logistical issue, shuffling paper prescriptions around between 3-5 parties ain't no fun and leads to prescriptions being lost in the process and a lot of beurocratic overhead.

rjzzleep 9y ago
It's a combination of both. Disclaimer IANAL I just tend to talk to them. Digital signatures by themselves only provide non repudiation of the sender non the receiver. When in court, you as a sender will have to prove that the receiver actually received the data. § 371 ZPO [1] When sending a Mail per Einschreiben, the receiver instead has to prove that he didnt in fact get the message. Why that also applies to FAX blows my mind though. AS4 and AS2 respectively solve this in a way, because the receipt is part of the protocol and successful transmission. From what I understand(I might be wrong) its traditionally used for EDI in supply chain systems [2]. Drummond certifies that your product supports the standard correctly some people make a lot of money and you're good to go(it's XML and SOAP though). Apparently the EU is looking at using it. Here's where the german bureaucracy ruins everything though. The law stated above mandates from what I understand(again IANAL) that you use DE-Mail for communication to flip the procedure stated above. DE-Mail requires the use of a trust center, a third party that receives the message and forwards it. The only other way to flip the evidence case is by using your own contract, which german lawyers avoid, because they might be liable in case something goes wrong. [1] https://dejure.org/gesetze/ZPO/371.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/ZPO/371.html [2] https://www.rssbus.com/mft/img/AS2-Diagram.png https://www.rssbus.com/mft/img/AS2-Diagram.png
- Xylakant 9y ago
  > When sending a Mail per Einschreiben, the receiver instead has to prove that he didnt in fact get the message. Why that also applies to FAX blows my mind though. Fax has a built-in transmission protocol and the receiver confirms that the transmission succeeded.

biztos 9y ago

Germany requires a lot of high-touch interaction to get anything official done, but in Hungary I have to sign seven (seven!) pages in order to send a DHL letter. So it can be much worse. :-)

robert_foss 9y ago
When receiving packages from outside of the EU, you'll have the pleasure of going to the Zollamt in Germany. At the Zollamt you'll get to enjoy standing in at least 3 separate and consecutive lines. Only to pay import taxes. Something that could have been done faster, cheaper and more conveniently by sending an invoice.
- kogepathic 9y ago
  > Something that could have been done faster, cheaper and more conveniently by sending an invoice. This is how it works if the seller fills out CN22 properly and the customs officials believe the declared contents/value. I have several times received packages with duties that I paid on delivery. No need to travel to the Zollamt. I have also been to the Zollamt when they suspect the package contains something else than what is on the shipping manifest. They're always quite giddy to catch you doing something not allowed and always end up terribly disappointed and grumpy when it's exactly as described and then you just pay VAT.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
alt2501 9y ago
That's awesome. Love the process.

tnolet 9y ago

As a Dutch person living and working in Berlin for some years now I can confirm the astounding gap between the state of digital banking between two wealthy neighbouring countries. The Dutch are practically light years ahead of the Germans on this one. This I say as a consumer and having worked in Dutch banking IT for 10 years.

robert_foss 9y ago
This exactly what I'm experiencing too. Just moved to Berlin, and have lived in Canada && Sweden previously.