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> In Germany there is a similar thing. Instead of having a barrier, they have lights to indicate which paths who can use and change them according to traffic.

> In Germany there is a similar thing. Instead of having a barrier, they have lights to indicate which paths who can use and change them according to traffic. The article actually touches this: > In theory, drivers could be directed to stay in particular lanes without dividers, but in practice: there is a long history of head-on collisions on the bridge. I wouldn't be surprised if German drivers are more disciplined than the average. They sure are a lot better at keeping right on the freeway than us Danes.

narrowtux 9y ago
not really ;)
wenc 9y ago
> I wouldn't be surprised if German drivers are more disciplined than the average. They sure are a lot better at keeping right on the freeway than us Danes. In Rio de Janeiro, there are lanes that change directions at certain times of day (e.g. after 5pm), and the only thing that indicates this is a static signboard. When I first saw this I was horrified, but I'm told that people are able to easily adapt to the traffic flow and that it somehow works. Also, Brazilian drivers are used to driving in much more chaos than in most western countries, so this doesn't really faze them. Ironically I've noticed that the least resilient drivers are usually those from developed countries when the traffic patterns and signage are regular and predictable.
- stirner 9y ago
  I saw the same thing in Ghana. On several occasions, the traffic light in the town’s busiest intersection would fail for hours, usually due to a “dum-sor” power supply shortage in the region[1]. However, all the drivers were very experienced with 4+-way intersections with no lights or signage, and everything progressed pretty smoothly (until I had to make my way through). [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumsor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumsor
- matt4077 9y ago
  This sort of "chaotic-order" does indeed look impressive, and I've personally been mesmerised, just watching busy intersections in India or the Philippines. But it's important to remember that despite all the skills these drivers exhibit every day, the number of traffic deaths under such circumstances is off the charts. Meanwhile, those boring roads in western countries have gotten saver by a cool order of magnitude. See this chart: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:USA_annual_VMT_vs_deaths_per_VMT.png#/media/File:USA_annual_VMT_vs_deaths_per_VMT.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:USA_annual_VMT_vs_de... It's actually quite a testament to the functioning of the American society over the last 50 years or so that they've been able to cut the number of traffic deaths by 90%, even though traffic has gotten a lot worse. I quite like it as an example, because it didn't just require technological progress. It also included a political component (seatbelt laws, principles for save road construction etc), and cultural changes (drunk driving...).
  - wenc 9y ago
    I agree. It's a systems effect. I see this phenomenon manifest in other areas of life too. Whenever you have a good system with average actors vs a bad system with some outstanding actors, the former usually wins in the long run. Good systems scale better and are more sustainable. In the traffic case, the average skill of the drivers in Brazil is arguably higher than in America (they can maneuver into spots that Americans won't even try to, and drive at much shorter braking distances without getting into accidents), but the traffic fatality rate there is also a lot higher. I've also noticed this in the corporate world. Big companies with good management but average employees tend to stick around for a long time (I won't name names, but a lot of people who work at big companies are decidedly mediocre). Companies with bad management but better-than-average employees tend to get into a lot of trouble. (cf. Uber) You want to have good systems and good actors, but when it is only possible to choose one, choosing the good system usually works well.
  - lozenge 9y ago
    > they've been able to cut the number of traffic deaths by 90%, even though traffic has gotten a lot worse. The graph shows deaths per billion miles. It looks like the number of deaths has remained constant even though traffic has gotten worse.
- cr0sh 9y ago
  > In Rio de Janeiro, there are lanes that change directions at certain times of day (e.g. after 5pm), and the only thing that indicates this is a static signboard. We have this here in Phoenix, Arizona; our north-south running "7th Street" has this kind of changeover for morning and evening rush-hour traffic to move people in/out of the downtown area quickly during weekdays (Monday-Friday). All other times it is meant to be treated as a median (suicide lane) for making lefts. I haven't heard of many accidents on it in the 20+ years I've lived here; there have been a few, though. Usually the problems arise near the changeover times; some people's clocks are slow or fast, or they are paying attention, etc. So head-on collisions can occur, but they seem to be fairly rare. There's also the possibility of those not paying attention and rear-ending someone using the lane to make a left turn (I believe this is still legal, in order to access businesses along the route). Personally, I try to avoid that lane - it just seems like the perfect setup for a one-way trip to the morgue.

narrowtux 9y ago

not really ;)

wenc 9y ago

> I wouldn't be surprised if German drivers are more disciplined than the average. They sure are a lot better at keeping right on the freeway than us Danes. In Rio de Janeiro, there are lanes that change directions at certain times of day (e.g. after 5pm), and the only thing that indicates this is a static signboard. When I first saw this I was horrified, but I'm told that people are able to easily adapt to the traffic flow and that it somehow works. Also, Brazilian drivers are used to driving in much more chaos than in most western countries, so this doesn't really faze them. Ironically I've noticed that the least resilient drivers are usually those from developed countries when the traffic patterns and signage are regular and predictable.

stirner 9y ago
I saw the same thing in Ghana. On several occasions, the traffic light in the town’s busiest intersection would fail for hours, usually due to a “dum-sor” power supply shortage in the region[1]. However, all the drivers were very experienced with 4+-way intersections with no lights or signage, and everything progressed pretty smoothly (until I had to make my way through). [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumsor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumsor
matt4077 9y ago
This sort of "chaotic-order" does indeed look impressive, and I've personally been mesmerised, just watching busy intersections in India or the Philippines. But it's important to remember that despite all the skills these drivers exhibit every day, the number of traffic deaths under such circumstances is off the charts. Meanwhile, those boring roads in western countries have gotten saver by a cool order of magnitude. See this chart: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:USA_annual_VMT_vs_deaths_per_VMT.png#/media/File:USA_annual_VMT_vs_deaths_per_VMT.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:USA_annual_VMT_vs_de... It's actually quite a testament to the functioning of the American society over the last 50 years or so that they've been able to cut the number of traffic deaths by 90%, even though traffic has gotten a lot worse. I quite like it as an example, because it didn't just require technological progress. It also included a political component (seatbelt laws, principles for save road construction etc), and cultural changes (drunk driving...).
- wenc 9y ago
  I agree. It's a systems effect. I see this phenomenon manifest in other areas of life too. Whenever you have a good system with average actors vs a bad system with some outstanding actors, the former usually wins in the long run. Good systems scale better and are more sustainable. In the traffic case, the average skill of the drivers in Brazil is arguably higher than in America (they can maneuver into spots that Americans won't even try to, and drive at much shorter braking distances without getting into accidents), but the traffic fatality rate there is also a lot higher. I've also noticed this in the corporate world. Big companies with good management but average employees tend to stick around for a long time (I won't name names, but a lot of people who work at big companies are decidedly mediocre). Companies with bad management but better-than-average employees tend to get into a lot of trouble. (cf. Uber) You want to have good systems and good actors, but when it is only possible to choose one, choosing the good system usually works well.
- lozenge 9y ago
  > they've been able to cut the number of traffic deaths by 90%, even though traffic has gotten a lot worse. The graph shows deaths per billion miles. It looks like the number of deaths has remained constant even though traffic has gotten worse.
cr0sh 9y ago
> In Rio de Janeiro, there are lanes that change directions at certain times of day (e.g. after 5pm), and the only thing that indicates this is a static signboard. We have this here in Phoenix, Arizona; our north-south running "7th Street" has this kind of changeover for morning and evening rush-hour traffic to move people in/out of the downtown area quickly during weekdays (Monday-Friday). All other times it is meant to be treated as a median (suicide lane) for making lefts. I haven't heard of many accidents on it in the 20+ years I've lived here; there have been a few, though. Usually the problems arise near the changeover times; some people's clocks are slow or fast, or they are paying attention, etc. So head-on collisions can occur, but they seem to be fairly rare. There's also the possibility of those not paying attention and rear-ending someone using the lane to make a left turn (I believe this is still legal, in order to access businesses along the route). Personally, I try to avoid that lane - it just seems like the perfect setup for a one-way trip to the morgue.