5 ms·

I've read the original article and, to be quite honest, couldn't actually determine what point it was trying to make. The action items seemed to have very littl

by moomin 9y ago

I've read the original article and, to be quite honest, couldn't actually determine what point it was trying to make. The action items seemed to have very little to do with the rest of the rant. I actually read the response first and the weird thing is: I couldn't really tell you what exactly the response is replying to. I feel like the whole thing is a huge amount of verbiage expressing frustration and broken motives but any actual solid facts mentioned are peripheral at best to what's being said. I could write multiple pages on how I fell out of love with Clojure but I doubt it would benefit anyone and it'd be a huge pain to do. Clojure is the product of a singular aesthetic, for better or worse.

sethev 9y ago
To me the original article read as an expression of frustration - the sort of feelings that are easy to understand but hurtful and frankly stupid to put out in public.
- stuaxo 9y ago
  The comparison to a relationship with a girl out of your league really makes him come off as a bit of a twat straight off the bat.
  - zcaudate 9y ago
    oh man... meta-trolling is amazing.
jasode 9y ago
>, couldn't actually determine what point it was trying to make. In the poorly written Chris Zheng rant, there was a link to a more mature blog post by Eric Normand.[1] (It would have been better use of Rich Hickey's time to ignore CZ and respond to Eric, but alas.) In any case, CZ is upset that Cognitec drives the evolution of Clojure and its libraries more than the community outside of Cognitec. E.g. one of his frameworks he liked (Noir) was ignored while Cognitec pushed its own. Here's my question, what mainstream programming language community actually meets CZ's criteria that the outside community drives the language with equal or more power than the internal team? It's certainly not Golang (Rob Pike, Brad Fitzgerald, Ross Cox, etc), nor C# (A Heilsberg, et al), nor Clang (Apple devs). Yes, they have github repos but the pull requests from outsiders is not the same priority as the internal teams agenda. Which language & community actually meets CZ's ideal? [1] http://www.lispcast.com/cognitect-clojure http://www.lispcast.com/cognitect-clojure
- jeremyjh 9y ago
  Ruby is an example for sure, Haskell is another.
  - mcphage 9y ago
    I don't know if it has changed recently, but for many years the core team for Ruby were all Japanese, and most of their conversations were in Japanese, and so almost nobody in the wider Ruby / Rails community had any visibility or influence on the language's development.
    - jeremyjh 9y ago
      Right, but that is just the language and VM implementation. The most important libraries in Ruby are not written by the core team who supports the VM.
- fourthark 9y ago
  And they rejected a couple of his pull requests and implemented similar features themselves. I don't think it's necessarily the responsibility of a project to validate its users. But there are examples like Node where the emphasis is on retaining and involving contributors. https://medium.com/the-node-js-collection/healthy-open-source-967fa8be7951 https://medium.com/the-node-js-collection/healthy-open-sourc... I'm not sure it fits everywhere but based on later posts, it seems to be working for them.
  - girvo 9y ago
    Though Node is run that way mainly because the pressure of io.js — specifically forked because Node wasn’t being run in a collaborative manner. Was an interesting time, with an excellent outcome.
- chongli 9y ago
  mainstream That's a weasel-word. For all we know, you could be using it as a synonym for a programming language community that's controlled by a corporation. Then your whole argument would be a tautology.
nextos 9y ago
The original article doesn't make much sense to me either. It's just a weird rant. I love Clojure and many of its libraries, but I think there are some aspects inhibiting its growth. Here they cover a few of these aspects: http://www.lispcast.com/cognitect-clojure http://www.lispcast.com/cognitect-clojure It worries me a bit, since I would really like to have a practical Lisp that is on par with other mainstream languages in terms of tools, libraries and community. Clojure is quite healthy now, but some items need to be addressed in order not to fall behind. I'm also quite enthusiastic about Racket getting to run on top of Chez Scheme, which may give it a bit of momentum. Besides, Clasp, with its LLVM capabilities, is the most promising Common Lisp to me right now. Sadly, it's mostly one-man project and the whole Common Lisp scene is a bit stagnant.

by moomin 9y ago

sethev 9y ago

To me the original article read as an expression of frustration - the sort of feelings that are easy to understand but hurtful and frankly stupid to put out in public.

stuaxo 9y ago
The comparison to a relationship with a girl out of your league really makes him come off as a bit of a twat straight off the bat.
- zcaudate 9y ago
  oh man... meta-trolling is amazing.

jasode 9y ago

>, couldn't actually determine what point it was trying to make. In the poorly written Chris Zheng rant, there was a link to a more mature blog post by Eric Normand.[1] (It would have been better use of Rich Hickey's time to ignore CZ and respond to Eric, but alas.) In any case, CZ is upset that Cognitec drives the evolution of Clojure and its libraries more than the community outside of Cognitec. E.g. one of his frameworks he liked (Noir) was ignored while Cognitec pushed its own. Here's my question, what mainstream programming language community actually meets CZ's criteria that the outside community drives the language with equal or more power than the internal team? It's certainly not Golang (Rob Pike, Brad Fitzgerald, Ross Cox, etc), nor C# (A Heilsberg, et al), nor Clang (Apple devs). Yes, they have github repos but the pull requests from outsiders is not the same priority as the internal teams agenda. Which language & community actually meets CZ's ideal? [1] http://www.lispcast.com/cognitect-clojure http://www.lispcast.com/cognitect-clojure

jeremyjh 9y ago
Ruby is an example for sure, Haskell is another.
- mcphage 9y ago
  I don't know if it has changed recently, but for many years the core team for Ruby were all Japanese, and most of their conversations were in Japanese, and so almost nobody in the wider Ruby / Rails community had any visibility or influence on the language's development.
  - jeremyjh 9y ago
    Right, but that is just the language and VM implementation. The most important libraries in Ruby are not written by the core team who supports the VM.
fourthark 9y ago
And they rejected a couple of his pull requests and implemented similar features themselves. I don't think it's necessarily the responsibility of a project to validate its users. But there are examples like Node where the emphasis is on retaining and involving contributors. https://medium.com/the-node-js-collection/healthy-open-source-967fa8be7951 https://medium.com/the-node-js-collection/healthy-open-sourc... I'm not sure it fits everywhere but based on later posts, it seems to be working for them.
- girvo 9y ago
  Though Node is run that way mainly because the pressure of io.js — specifically forked because Node wasn’t being run in a collaborative manner. Was an interesting time, with an excellent outcome.
chongli 9y ago
mainstream That's a weasel-word. For all we know, you could be using it as a synonym for a programming language community that's controlled by a corporation. Then your whole argument would be a tautology.

nextos 9y ago

The original article doesn't make much sense to me either. It's just a weird rant. I love Clojure and many of its libraries, but I think there are some aspects inhibiting its growth. Here they cover a few of these aspects: http://www.lispcast.com/cognitect-clojure http://www.lispcast.com/cognitect-clojure It worries me a bit, since I would really like to have a practical Lisp that is on par with other mainstream languages in terms of tools, libraries and community. Clojure is quite healthy now, but some items need to be addressed in order not to fall behind. I'm also quite enthusiastic about Racket getting to run on top of Chez Scheme, which may give it a bit of momentum. Besides, Clasp, with its LLVM capabilities, is the most promising Common Lisp to me right now. Sadly, it's mostly one-man project and the whole Common Lisp scene is a bit stagnant.