7 ms·

>Does anyone try to retain developer talent these days? There's a line of thought which assumes that an employee that's given notice has already mentally "chec

by jasode 9y ago

>Does anyone try to retain developer talent these days? There's a line of thought which assumes that an employee that's given notice has already mentally "checked out". Therefore, it's unwise to present counteroffers. Even if the manager persuades the employee to accept the counteroffer, it's inadvertently detrimental to the team because you have retained a disengaged mind that was eager to leave. To avoid all that, you wish them well with a smile and just let them leave. Many companies follow that principle. It's important for a developer to know ahead of time if the company doesn't do counteroffers because if you're just fishing around for job offers with no intention of changing jobs, the company may call your bluff and let you leave.

analog31 9y ago
Something I've wondered is whether this is basically a bluffing tactic: If an employee is persuaded that there will be no counteroffer, then it's more of an emotional hurdle to start the job search. On the flip side, I was hired during a hiring freeze.
- platz 9y ago
  It would only be a bluff if your initial threat to take another offer was a bluff, which would change the situation entirely
ugh123 9y ago
Every situation is different. Example: An employee has become bored in their current role, and a snoozing manager hasn't noticed in a while. If the employee hasn't been engaged by their manager then, sure, they'll look elsewhere. HR's (and the manager's manager) first question should be: have we offered this employee a different role outside of this project/team. Not every employee who has given notice is completely "checked out". They may be frustrated in their current role where they might not have been given the right opportunities for more responsibility or higher profile projects. Asking the employee what their real issues are is the first step.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  For what it's worth, I can vouch for this situation happening to me. On a few occasions. In different organizations. Other than the vague "Are years four through six here going to make me more valuable than years one through three somewhere else?", I would have been fine sticking around with a promotion, new technical opportunities, more strategic leeway, or even a big enough raise.
  - KGIII 9y ago
    My view has been prevent it in the first place. If my employee was seeking work elsewhere, then we have failed them. If you are unhappy then you should be in a work environment where you're able to address that successfully and in a mature manner. If your concerns aren't aired, they can't be addressed. Air them and we will do what we can to keep you from needing to move elsewhere. Anything else means having failed the employee - with some exceptions. Some folks do have unreasonable requirements that will not be satisfied.
    - wolco 9y ago
      Do you automatically / randomly give raises that pushes there salary to match the job market?
      - KGIII 9y ago
        There wasn't much of anything to compare with. Traffic modeling 'on a computer' didn't have (m)any domain experts, nor programmers with domain knowledge. So, training was key and something I felt strongly about. I started employees at higher rates than senior traffic engineers make today. Pay also included bonuses and profit sharing, sort of. The profit sharing wasn't ever written into policy. The benefits were prett good. I always tried to find a way to ensure any additional training/education goals were met. We'd still pay their partial salary while they attended, cover child care expenses, and things like that - if and where needed. It wasn't always domain related. I've paid for people to take culinary arts classes, albeit at night, just because they wanted to learn to cook better. Err... It is slightly more involved than that and a post of its own, if you want me to write about that aspect. I'm willing to do so, but I strive to remain on topic. As mentioned elsewhere, I had slightly less than 250 employees. I also never took any classes in management. So, I got away with things that would be laughed at today. Our head office had a small bar and pool table in the back, for example. Anyhow, a programmer would have probably started at about $120k in the year 2000. That is unadjusted. Not having taken any management classes, I realized that individual salaries were paltry compared to other fees, I paid $12k per month just for a print room. I also realized it wasn't my money paying for it. I kept the business' funds separate from my own and drew down a salary like everyone else. My clients paid our salaries. If I had higher salaries, my rates would adjust to suit. If you're curious, I actually paid myself a smaller salary than some employees got paid. I'd hired them to do complicated things that I could not do. I paid them accordingly. It was rather unorthodox. The company was sold and the sake was finalized in 2007. The now-parent company is public so it has SEC filings. I suspect I've given out enough information to figure out the name, but I'll let you sleuth or not. I kind of enjoy not being known as 'that guy' and having to meet expectations. Related: I am still mulling over the idea of writing a book, but I am not really a good writer. So, it's a bit of a toss-up.
wpietri 9y ago
I'm definitely of that school of thought. I think if you're waiting to the point of a counteroffer to retain talent, you've already lost. I think part of my job as a manager is to make sure that everybody is paid fairly all the time. For me that means benchmarking the salary structure to peer companies, a good career ladder, regular performance reviews, etc. If one of my employees came to me and said, "A friend at company X said I could make $Y if I moved there", I'd definitely use that data to make sure our total package was fair. Hopefully we'd find we were already doing things well, but if not, I could easily see that research resulting in raises. On the other hand, if somebody comes to me and says, "I already have an offer in hand from place X for $Y because I've been secretly job hunting for the last month," then I'd be very unlikely to counteroffer with more money. I'd certainly want to talk about why they were unhappy enough to start job hunting. Maybe there's a problem we weren't aware of or taking seriously enough. (And also I'd want to investigate how we hadn't discovered the problem until it was big enough they wanted to quit.) If we can solve that problem for them (and hopefully for other people, we should. But if it's only a question of money when I think our pay is fair, then I wouldn't counter. One, I don't think money keeps anybody anywhere for long, so I'd expect the counter to be a bandaid. Two, either I have to change the whole salary structure to match or I've just made things less fair. That penalizes people who aren't as money-focused. Three, there are often reasons other places pay more on a cash basis. If somebody values cash more than other things I like to provide (e.g., working with good people, good work-life balance, more time available for learning, not having to clean up giant messes), then maybe they will be happier elsewhere. And really, I'm fine with that. If somebody working for me would really be happier elsewhere, I'd rather help them find that next job. And if they won't be happier elsewhere but need to find that out for themselves, I'd rather have them feel welcome to come back.
- throw_away_9988 9y ago
  > If somebody values cash more than other things I like to provide What a b/s! A good programmer wants to work with a good entrepreneur. And a good entrepreneur knows how to find money. That's the definition of a decent entrepreneur. Your "working with good people", "good work-life balance" is b/s! You just don't appreciate the work engineer(s) do. That's it. You wanna pay them with snacks, not money. And it's a shame!
muzani 9y ago
Agreed. Quitting your job is like a relationship break up. Talking someone into staying might just get them to say yes, to be nice, then just change their mind and not show up some day.
- 0xbear 9y ago
  In a small company, maybe. In a large one, not at all. Get that counter, negotiate a promo, change teams 6 months later. Everyone is happy.
fsloth 9y ago
"There's a line of thought which assumes that an employee that's given notice has already mentally "checked out". Therefore, it's unwise to present counteroffers" That's just bullshit rationalization why they don't want to raise pay. Profits come first for most modern companies, and the rationale for action trickles down from that basic driving force. Best engineers are coin operated and problem focused. If they get an offer, say, 20% better than their current package with the roughly same job otherwise, they would be blind fools not to leave. Talking in the general Big Co. environment, that is. In smaller companies with stronger ties other dynamics might kick in. And, there is the situation of the gimme-more-money-or-I'm-gone bluff, of course. I don't think there is any rational reason not to give a counteroffer to a solid contributor - if the offer is real and he's worth it. Political reasons might of course kick in, like a corporate policy, that have nothing to do with the individual contributors motivation or output.
- rando444 9y ago
  If the employee just wanted more money and feels they are worth it, then all they have to do is ask. If the employee already starts looking for another job without even trying to get more money in his current position, there is no reason to try and convince him to stay.
  - JamesBarney 9y ago
    Many places if you ask for more money you'll get "sorry you're at the top of your range". "we can only give raises during performance review". Then when you turn in your 2 weeks suddenly it's "if it's money you're looking it's no problem to give you a very large out of band raise. Why didn't you say something?"
  - fsloth 9y ago
    "If the employee just wanted more money and feels they are worth it, then all they have to do is ask." No. The calculus is different. If it's a raise, it merely increases the cost of an employee. A counteroffer on the other hand counters several costs and risks. Hiring, training, loss of knowledge etc. "If the employee already starts looking for another job without even trying to get more money in his current position" Why do you presume that is the general case? I.e. does not ask for money or that they sought for another job. Best talent tries to get compensation their worth. They probably ask for raises - but they are probably also sought by recruitment consultants. If a raise is not coming, and a consultant asks for what they would be willing to work for - well, it's simply not a case of trying to leave.
w_t_payne 9y ago
I would never ever counteroffer. To do so would crack Pandora's box wide open. First of all, it is simply not a game that I am willing to play. Secondly, the other team members will know about it (eventually) and will (eventually) try to do the same thing. Overall, it would be detrimental to team cohesion and would undermine the culture that I want to build:- One that is focused entirely on solving the problem in front of us. If a member of my team needed a pay rise (i.e. if they were expecting a child) then I would work energetically to represent them within the organisation to make sure that they get what they need -- but for their part I would expect them to interact with me honestly and not play silly games.
- gaius 9y ago
  If a member of my team needed a pay rise (i.e. if they were expecting a child) Wow, isn't that massively discriminatory? Raises and contributions should be merit- or contribution-based, no more and no less.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - kixiQu 9y ago
    Yeah, I'm trying to read it as "if a member of my team came to me with a new ambition to do what it takes to up their comp (for whatever reason) I'd work with them to expand their role in the org" but... it should not be a manager's job to view me taking care of my parents differently from Coworker X buying anime figurines if Coworker X and I are in the same role having the same success.
- rdtsc 9y ago
  Would you give them a 30%-40% raise? That's what people are often getting when they switch jobs. Another point is some might feel if they have to ask for a raise, the company has failed them already, they work should have been noticed by then.
- pertymcpert 9y ago
  It's not silly games. It's a business transaction, they're negotiating. I think it's fair to not counter offer for reasons stated elsewhere in this thread but you can't accuse people of playing games when this is such an important part of our lives. So much is dependent on money, to not negotiate with other offers is foolish when the moment a company decides that an employee is less valuable than their cost they're out the door.

by jasode 9y ago

analog31 9y ago

Something I've wondered is whether this is basically a bluffing tactic: If an employee is persuaded that there will be no counteroffer, then it's more of an emotional hurdle to start the job search. On the flip side, I was hired during a hiring freeze.

platz 9y ago
It would only be a bluff if your initial threat to take another offer was a bluff, which would change the situation entirely

ugh123 9y ago

Every situation is different. Example: An employee has become bored in their current role, and a snoozing manager hasn't noticed in a while. If the employee hasn't been engaged by their manager then, sure, they'll look elsewhere. HR's (and the manager's manager) first question should be: have we offered this employee a different role outside of this project/team. Not every employee who has given notice is completely "checked out". They may be frustrated in their current role where they might not have been given the right opportunities for more responsibility or higher profile projects. Asking the employee what their real issues are is the first step.

humanrebar 9y ago
For what it's worth, I can vouch for this situation happening to me. On a few occasions. In different organizations. Other than the vague "Are years four through six here going to make me more valuable than years one through three somewhere else?", I would have been fine sticking around with a promotion, new technical opportunities, more strategic leeway, or even a big enough raise.
- KGIII 9y ago
  My view has been prevent it in the first place. If my employee was seeking work elsewhere, then we have failed them. If you are unhappy then you should be in a work environment where you're able to address that successfully and in a mature manner. If your concerns aren't aired, they can't be addressed. Air them and we will do what we can to keep you from needing to move elsewhere. Anything else means having failed the employee - with some exceptions. Some folks do have unreasonable requirements that will not be satisfied.
  - wolco 9y ago
    Do you automatically / randomly give raises that pushes there salary to match the job market?
    - KGIII 9y ago
      There wasn't much of anything to compare with. Traffic modeling 'on a computer' didn't have (m)any domain experts, nor programmers with domain knowledge. So, training was key and something I felt strongly about. I started employees at higher rates than senior traffic engineers make today. Pay also included bonuses and profit sharing, sort of. The profit sharing wasn't ever written into policy. The benefits were prett good. I always tried to find a way to ensure any additional training/education goals were met. We'd still pay their partial salary while they attended, cover child care expenses, and things like that - if and where needed. It wasn't always domain related. I've paid for people to take culinary arts classes, albeit at night, just because they wanted to learn to cook better. Err... It is slightly more involved than that and a post of its own, if you want me to write about that aspect. I'm willing to do so, but I strive to remain on topic. As mentioned elsewhere, I had slightly less than 250 employees. I also never took any classes in management. So, I got away with things that would be laughed at today. Our head office had a small bar and pool table in the back, for example. Anyhow, a programmer would have probably started at about $120k in the year 2000. That is unadjusted. Not having taken any management classes, I realized that individual salaries were paltry compared to other fees, I paid $12k per month just for a print room. I also realized it wasn't my money paying for it. I kept the business' funds separate from my own and drew down a salary like everyone else. My clients paid our salaries. If I had higher salaries, my rates would adjust to suit. If you're curious, I actually paid myself a smaller salary than some employees got paid. I'd hired them to do complicated things that I could not do. I paid them accordingly. It was rather unorthodox. The company was sold and the sake was finalized in 2007. The now-parent company is public so it has SEC filings. I suspect I've given out enough information to figure out the name, but I'll let you sleuth or not. I kind of enjoy not being known as 'that guy' and having to meet expectations. Related: I am still mulling over the idea of writing a book, but I am not really a good writer. So, it's a bit of a toss-up.

wpietri 9y ago

I'm definitely of that school of thought. I think if you're waiting to the point of a counteroffer to retain talent, you've already lost. I think part of my job as a manager is to make sure that everybody is paid fairly all the time. For me that means benchmarking the salary structure to peer companies, a good career ladder, regular performance reviews, etc. If one of my employees came to me and said, "A friend at company X said I could make $Y if I moved there", I'd definitely use that data to make sure our total package was fair. Hopefully we'd find we were already doing things well, but if not, I could easily see that research resulting in raises. On the other hand, if somebody comes to me and says, "I already have an offer in hand from place X for $Y because I've been secretly job hunting for the last month," then I'd be very unlikely to counteroffer with more money. I'd certainly want to talk about why they were unhappy enough to start job hunting. Maybe there's a problem we weren't aware of or taking seriously enough. (And also I'd want to investigate how we hadn't discovered the problem until it was big enough they wanted to quit.) If we can solve that problem for them (and hopefully for other people, we should. But if it's only a question of money when I think our pay is fair, then I wouldn't counter. One, I don't think money keeps anybody anywhere for long, so I'd expect the counter to be a bandaid. Two, either I have to change the whole salary structure to match or I've just made things less fair. That penalizes people who aren't as money-focused. Three, there are often reasons other places pay more on a cash basis. If somebody values cash more than other things I like to provide (e.g., working with good people, good work-life balance, more time available for learning, not having to clean up giant messes), then maybe they will be happier elsewhere. And really, I'm fine with that. If somebody working for me would really be happier elsewhere, I'd rather help them find that next job. And if they won't be happier elsewhere but need to find that out for themselves, I'd rather have them feel welcome to come back.

throw_away_9988 9y ago
> If somebody values cash more than other things I like to provide What a b/s! A good programmer wants to work with a good entrepreneur. And a good entrepreneur knows how to find money. That's the definition of a decent entrepreneur. Your "working with good people", "good work-life balance" is b/s! You just don't appreciate the work engineer(s) do. That's it. You wanna pay them with snacks, not money. And it's a shame!

muzani 9y ago

Agreed. Quitting your job is like a relationship break up. Talking someone into staying might just get them to say yes, to be nice, then just change their mind and not show up some day.

0xbear 9y ago
In a small company, maybe. In a large one, not at all. Get that counter, negotiate a promo, change teams 6 months later. Everyone is happy.

fsloth 9y ago

"There's a line of thought which assumes that an employee that's given notice has already mentally "checked out". Therefore, it's unwise to present counteroffers" That's just bullshit rationalization why they don't want to raise pay. Profits come first for most modern companies, and the rationale for action trickles down from that basic driving force. Best engineers are coin operated and problem focused. If they get an offer, say, 20% better than their current package with the roughly same job otherwise, they would be blind fools not to leave. Talking in the general Big Co. environment, that is. In smaller companies with stronger ties other dynamics might kick in. And, there is the situation of the gimme-more-money-or-I'm-gone bluff, of course. I don't think there is any rational reason not to give a counteroffer to a solid contributor - if the offer is real and he's worth it. Political reasons might of course kick in, like a corporate policy, that have nothing to do with the individual contributors motivation or output.

rando444 9y ago
If the employee just wanted more money and feels they are worth it, then all they have to do is ask. If the employee already starts looking for another job without even trying to get more money in his current position, there is no reason to try and convince him to stay.
- JamesBarney 9y ago
  Many places if you ask for more money you'll get "sorry you're at the top of your range". "we can only give raises during performance review". Then when you turn in your 2 weeks suddenly it's "if it's money you're looking it's no problem to give you a very large out of band raise. Why didn't you say something?"
- fsloth 9y ago
  "If the employee just wanted more money and feels they are worth it, then all they have to do is ask." No. The calculus is different. If it's a raise, it merely increases the cost of an employee. A counteroffer on the other hand counters several costs and risks. Hiring, training, loss of knowledge etc. "If the employee already starts looking for another job without even trying to get more money in his current position" Why do you presume that is the general case? I.e. does not ask for money or that they sought for another job. Best talent tries to get compensation their worth. They probably ask for raises - but they are probably also sought by recruitment consultants. If a raise is not coming, and a consultant asks for what they would be willing to work for - well, it's simply not a case of trying to leave.

w_t_payne 9y ago

I would never ever counteroffer. To do so would crack Pandora's box wide open. First of all, it is simply not a game that I am willing to play. Secondly, the other team members will know about it (eventually) and will (eventually) try to do the same thing. Overall, it would be detrimental to team cohesion and would undermine the culture that I want to build:- One that is focused entirely on solving the problem in front of us. If a member of my team needed a pay rise (i.e. if they were expecting a child) then I would work energetically to represent them within the organisation to make sure that they get what they need -- but for their part I would expect them to interact with me honestly and not play silly games.

gaius 9y ago
If a member of my team needed a pay rise (i.e. if they were expecting a child) Wow, isn't that massively discriminatory? Raises and contributions should be merit- or contribution-based, no more and no less.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- kixiQu 9y ago
  Yeah, I'm trying to read it as "if a member of my team came to me with a new ambition to do what it takes to up their comp (for whatever reason) I'd work with them to expand their role in the org" but... it should not be a manager's job to view me taking care of my parents differently from Coworker X buying anime figurines if Coworker X and I are in the same role having the same success.
rdtsc 9y ago
Would you give them a 30%-40% raise? That's what people are often getting when they switch jobs. Another point is some might feel if they have to ask for a raise, the company has failed them already, they work should have been noticed by then.
pertymcpert 9y ago
It's not silly games. It's a business transaction, they're negotiating. I think it's fair to not counter offer for reasons stated elsewhere in this thread but you can't accuse people of playing games when this is such an important part of our lives. So much is dependent on money, to not negotiate with other offers is foolish when the moment a company decides that an employee is less valuable than their cost they're out the door.