4 ms·

> So what is fair? Isn't that the toughest question? I don't know what the answer is. I don't know where I stand on affirmative action: in any given instant, i

by Osmium 9y ago

> So what is fair? Isn't that the toughest question? I don't know what the answer is. I don't know where I stand on affirmative action: in any given instant, it seems unfair, but in a historical context it seems necessary that affirmative action should happen until the point where the damage done in the past has been undone, and we can have equal opportunities. LBJ's words resonate with me on this: > That beginning is freedom; and the barriers to that freedom are tumbling down. Freedom is the right to share, share fully and equally, in American society--to vote, to hold a job, to enter a public place, to go to school. It is the right to be treated in every part of our national life as a person equal in dignity and promise to all others. > But freedom is not enough. You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: Now you are free to go where you want, and do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please. > You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and then say, "you are free to compete with all the others," and still justly believe that you have been completely fair. > Thus it is not enough just to open the gates of opportunity. All our citizens must have the ability to walk through those gates. Source: http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=27021 http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=27021

wallace_f 9y ago
It's difficult because these injustices did actually happen, and were terrible, but they are not happening today. Meanwhile there is enough injustice in the world right now make any good-hearted person's head spin. I really believe the real problem was not fixed. We need to not just ensure, but try to maximize opportunity for all people, and not limit any group to it. Instead, everything is focused on tail-end adjustments that are neither fair nor optimal for maximizing opportunity and prosperity. I wanted MLK's idea of a colorblind world where no one is judged based on your skin, but we've gone so far down this rabbit hole that what we are in fact doing is this very thing! Yet no one dare say it as it is so incredibly politically incorrect to discuss it with honesty. If you want honesty, look at banking, government, academia, and media, and see which race has orders of magnitude disproportionate representation.
- Osmium 9y ago
  > I wanted MLK's idea of a colorblind world where no one is judged based on your skin I still believe this is possible, I just think we're one or two generations behind. I'm encouraged that the coming generation seems to understand fairness and equality much more naturally and intuitively than my own generation. Where I still feel like I need to be vigilant against racist thought creeping in (simply from conditioning, stereotypes... I don't consider myself racist, but it's so easy to become tribal without realizing it), for people just a few years younger than me it seems it's just that much easier for them. And the next generation after will hopefully be better still. I have hope. When you think about it, humanity went very quickly from largely homogenous, semi-isolated communities, to a global community, with lots of movement. It’s going a while for the system to equilibriate. And while there may be many little racist Maxwell’s demons running around doing damage in the short term, I have faith that in the long term we will get there.
plandis 9y ago
You're effectively saying that white people should pay for the sins of their ancestors. Instead of making this about race I wish that they would make it about socioeconomic status. How is it fair that I, a white guy from a poor family with no college connections, should have a harder time gaining entry to college solely because of the color of my skin for things I didn't even do.
- Osmium 9y ago
  For the record, I’m also a white guy from a poorer family with no college connections. And we don’t bear the sins of our forefathers. That doesn’t mean we don’t benefit from them. I worked hard, I got lucky, but I can’t pretend my priviledge doesn’t also exist. That a minority with my background wouldn’t have had to work even harder. I’m not saying it’s fair. As I said, I don’t know where I stand on affirmative action. I think there’s a fundamental tension there. But what LBJ said in that speech feels true to me.
  - eropple 9y ago
    Seriously. This is the invisible knapsack writ large. As a white dude from a family with no college connections, I was still basically allowed to half-ass my way into a career where I make $150K a year through a college that was all-too-happy to accept me. "Privilege" is an uncountable part of that "luck" everybody in our shoes needs to recognize exists. That's why the concept is a thing in the first place.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- davewritescode 9y ago
  You’re not paying for the sins of your ancestors. Being a white guy gives you an advantage in the world whether you want to admit it or not. Instead of complaining about how unfair the world is to you as a white man, go do what black men in this country have had to do for centuries. Suck it up, work your ass off and make something of yourself and stop fucking complaining about how unfair it all is. My biggest problem with the US is how out of control whiny we’ve become

by Osmium 9y ago

wallace_f 9y ago

It's difficult because these injustices did actually happen, and were terrible, but they are not happening today. Meanwhile there is enough injustice in the world right now make any good-hearted person's head spin. I really believe the real problem was not fixed. We need to not just ensure, but try to maximize opportunity for all people, and not limit any group to it. Instead, everything is focused on tail-end adjustments that are neither fair nor optimal for maximizing opportunity and prosperity. I wanted MLK's idea of a colorblind world where no one is judged based on your skin, but we've gone so far down this rabbit hole that what we are in fact doing is this very thing! Yet no one dare say it as it is so incredibly politically incorrect to discuss it with honesty. If you want honesty, look at banking, government, academia, and media, and see which race has orders of magnitude disproportionate representation.

Osmium 9y ago
> I wanted MLK's idea of a colorblind world where no one is judged based on your skin I still believe this is possible, I just think we're one or two generations behind. I'm encouraged that the coming generation seems to understand fairness and equality much more naturally and intuitively than my own generation. Where I still feel like I need to be vigilant against racist thought creeping in (simply from conditioning, stereotypes... I don't consider myself racist, but it's so easy to become tribal without realizing it), for people just a few years younger than me it seems it's just that much easier for them. And the next generation after will hopefully be better still. I have hope. When you think about it, humanity went very quickly from largely homogenous, semi-isolated communities, to a global community, with lots of movement. It’s going a while for the system to equilibriate. And while there may be many little racist Maxwell’s demons running around doing damage in the short term, I have faith that in the long term we will get there.

plandis 9y ago

You're effectively saying that white people should pay for the sins of their ancestors. Instead of making this about race I wish that they would make it about socioeconomic status. How is it fair that I, a white guy from a poor family with no college connections, should have a harder time gaining entry to college solely because of the color of my skin for things I didn't even do.

Osmium 9y ago
For the record, I’m also a white guy from a poorer family with no college connections. And we don’t bear the sins of our forefathers. That doesn’t mean we don’t benefit from them. I worked hard, I got lucky, but I can’t pretend my priviledge doesn’t also exist. That a minority with my background wouldn’t have had to work even harder. I’m not saying it’s fair. As I said, I don’t know where I stand on affirmative action. I think there’s a fundamental tension there. But what LBJ said in that speech feels true to me.
- eropple 9y ago
  Seriously. This is the invisible knapsack writ large. As a white dude from a family with no college connections, I was still basically allowed to half-ass my way into a career where I make $150K a year through a college that was all-too-happy to accept me. "Privilege" is an uncountable part of that "luck" everybody in our shoes needs to recognize exists. That's why the concept is a thing in the first place.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
davewritescode 9y ago
You’re not paying for the sins of your ancestors. Being a white guy gives you an advantage in the world whether you want to admit it or not. Instead of complaining about how unfair the world is to you as a white man, go do what black men in this country have had to do for centuries. Suck it up, work your ass off and make something of yourself and stop fucking complaining about how unfair it all is. My biggest problem with the US is how out of control whiny we’ve become