5 ms·

There seems to be a bit of a contradiction in her post: > Despite the cargo shorts and the loner attitude, I learned like a girl. And: > it was an all-girls

by jansho 9y ago

There seems to be a bit of a contradiction in her post: > Despite the cargo shorts and the loner attitude, I learned like a girl. And: > it was an all-girls school, and every single other woman who took that computer science class that year became an engineer or scientist. Hmm, it sounds more like she has a different learning style, which is not necessarily down to her femaleness. That said, I think that at a fundamental level, there are differences in how men and women think. But none are better than the other, we know that we gain richer insights when we take both into account. But in this current political climate, it's unwise to go too deep about this, because it can so easily slip into the really nasty domains. Remember the time when phrenology was used to justify gender and race discrimination? This is why I dislike Damore. I don't care what his manifesto says, but I bet that he knew exactly what he was doing. Playing games is pathetic, dude. I can sympathise with the writer as I have a similar story too. I'm permanently put off from going into engineering, but I've accepted that and moved on. (Incidentally it's education and design, to better design learning experiences for everyone!) And that's OK, the burden of guilt of "letting down your kind" is also terrible. Life's too short and there are so many other interesting, under-explored areas ... and you can still get involved in tech. The best bit about tech? It's just a tool.

skinnymuch 9y ago
Is there a specific part of what you're referring to with > This is why I dislike Damore. I don't care what his manifesto says, but I bet that he knew exactly what he was doing. Playing games is pathetic, dude. I haven't read the manifesto and don't want to procrastinate now. Are you saying he knew his stuff about women being inferior for the work Googlers do (which I wholly disagree with) was him partially BSing and just stirring shit up or trying to get his sexist viewpoint across with any excuse possible?
- jansho 9y ago
  I haven't read it either, and won't like to. After his arrogant/weird responses, I'm sure it's pure intellectual bullshit. I don't know what his exact motive was, but he sure seems to enjoy the storms he's caused. I just dislike people like that.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - fernandotakai 9y ago
    uhhh, how can you say it's pure intellectual bullshit without reading? it would me like me calling you an asshole without knowing you.
    - jansho 9y ago
      > it would me like me calling you an asshole without knowing you. That's not a fair comparison. I skimmed through the manifesto and followed the Damore case close enough to reach that strong opinion (I didn't just wrap myself in Guardianista commentary). After that, and watching his reactions, I just don't have the time nor care to study his manifesto line by line. Would you, if you find a person that you just cannot respect, and have many more to do and think about?
      - emsy 9y ago
        You didn't actually read what he wrote but "followed the Damore case" which means you read what others wrote about him. That's extremely ignorant. I have no respect for people like you who get their opinion served by others. And that's something I can confidently say from your replies.
dxhdr 9y ago
> at a fundamental level, there are differences in how men and women think It's undeniable there are biological differences between men and women, but this seems far fetched. Biological differences don't manifest themselves in an intuitive way; for example, there is no difference between men and women's hair. However we perceive a large difference entirely due to environmental training.
- Retric 9y ago
  It would be odd for there it be zero observable differences considering how different many brain structures are between men and women. If nothing else women get migraines more frequently than men do. Which seems unlikely to come down to environmental issues.
  - dxhdr 9y ago
    Are these differences in brain structure observable in the womb, or after years of growing? As an example, abuse victims can also have altered brain structures but they certainly weren't born that way.
- 33a 9y ago
  Not that I disagree with the sentiment, but hair is a bad example. Men go bald and get beards, while women don't.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - ztjio 9y ago
    You must be young or not know very many women. Nearly every woman eventually starts growing facial hair. Many remove it every day. And some women do lose their hair, though admittedly it's much less common.
    - skinnymuch 9y ago
      Sure technically both genders grow facial hair. But still, men can grow much more hair on average than women, especially facial hair, no? South Asian females as an example sometimes can have more hair than average in many spots, but then you have many men with forest levels of hair around their body.
NiceGuy_Ty 9y ago
Every time I hear someone mention behavioral differences due to the biological differences between men and women, my response (that I'm stealing from my professor) is that the differences amongst men and women outweigh the differences between men and women. Applied to this topic, that means that you're going to find people that prefer these different learning styles on both sides of the gender gap. Also, I feel like wanting to increase the human aspect of programming isn't just a girl thing. The people whom I know that best fit the solitary hacker type love sharing their work, offering advice, and collaborating on projects with friends and peers.
- skinnymuch 9y ago
  > Every time I hear someone mention behavioral differences due to the biological differences between men and women, my response (that I'm stealing from my professor) is that the differences amongst men and women outweigh the differences between men and women. Applied to this topic, that means that you're going to find people that prefer these different learning styles on both sides of the gender gap. That's a great way of describing learning. I love your professor's quote. Definitely going to use it :P
- darawk 9y ago
  > Every time I hear someone mention behavioral differences due to the biological differences between men and women, my response (that I'm stealing from my professor) is that the differences amongst men and women outweigh the differences between men and women. Applied to this topic, that means that you're going to find people that prefer these different learning styles on both sides of the gender gap. That's a nice sentiment, but it's not actually very true. With regard to this particular article, I think there are plenty of women who can thrive in the environment she described. I know some of them. So, I don't think this particular situation is caused by divergent information processing between men and women. That being said, information processing is a multi-dimensional thing. The axes of difference between men and women may be different than the axes of variance among men and women. To say that "the differences among men and women outweigh the differences between men and women" is to ignore the fact that they may not be the same differences we're talking about. This is a thorny question, because it obviously implies that men are better at some things and women are better at other things. This can reinforce biases, and entrench or seem to justify unfair treatment. But the fact that an issue may be fraught does not change the truth-value of its propositions.
musage 9y ago
> we gain richer insights when we take both into account If there really were fundamental differences, that would not be possible. When I take someone elses viewpoint or way of thinking or anything else that is fundamentally different from what I know "into account", what I really take into account what I imagine that other viewpoint to be, cobbled together from the things I do know. I don't say this to contradict, I think empathy goes a long way and is a very real thing, even though it doesn't mean we magically see things how others do. And luckily we have communication. We can make our own viewpoints and feelings clear, and encourage others to be open about theirs. I'm wary about fundamental differences and all that.. spectra, maybe (I'm not sold on mutual exclusivity at all), but even then certainly not with one dimension and two poles -- but assuming it were literally that way, then there would be only halves, and nobody with an overview. Just abstractions about the other, which are useless, realize the self and let the other self self-realize, communicate, done. Sorry for sounding like a hippie, no dig against hippies intended. It's really hard to talk about this stuff, but not for political correctness and not for the assholes who take all sorts of things and misuse them anway, just in general.
- jansho 9y ago
  > If there really were fundamental differences, that would not be possible. I'm not really sure if I understood your point properly - I've clarified elsewhere in this thread that this was an assumption, and gender isn't the only factor in the differences of the ways we think (so when I said "both" in my parent comment, this is because I am looking at the situation solely with the gender lens). But I share with the general sentiment of your post. I'm don't really care for fundamental differences etc, even if we have them, so what, it still doesn't change the fact that diversity is generally a great thing. I also found empathy goes a long way, IMO that's the only way to deal with diversity and cut past discrimination. Of course there are also the intellectual and material rewards of diversity that we are all familiar with... Goodness, it's so hard to explain this, forgive me if this is just more confusing than ever.
kukx 9y ago
> This is why I dislike Damore. I don't care what his manifesto says ... Playing games is pathetic, dude. Well, according to his statement he was a top performer at Google, so we can assume he was not afraid of being replaced by a woman. Besides he just started a discussion in a response to, according to him, shady moves in regards of equality performed by Google. It is worth to listen to the other side: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDuVF7kiPU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDuVF7kiPU

by jansho 9y ago

skinnymuch 9y ago

Is there a specific part of what you're referring to with > This is why I dislike Damore. I don't care what his manifesto says, but I bet that he knew exactly what he was doing. Playing games is pathetic, dude. I haven't read the manifesto and don't want to procrastinate now. Are you saying he knew his stuff about women being inferior for the work Googlers do (which I wholly disagree with) was him partially BSing and just stirring shit up or trying to get his sexist viewpoint across with any excuse possible?

jansho 9y ago
I haven't read it either, and won't like to. After his arrogant/weird responses, I'm sure it's pure intellectual bullshit. I don't know what his exact motive was, but he sure seems to enjoy the storms he's caused. I just dislike people like that.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- fernandotakai 9y ago
  uhhh, how can you say it's pure intellectual bullshit without reading? it would me like me calling you an asshole without knowing you.
  - jansho 9y ago
    > it would me like me calling you an asshole without knowing you. That's not a fair comparison. I skimmed through the manifesto and followed the Damore case close enough to reach that strong opinion (I didn't just wrap myself in Guardianista commentary). After that, and watching his reactions, I just don't have the time nor care to study his manifesto line by line. Would you, if you find a person that you just cannot respect, and have many more to do and think about?
    - emsy 9y ago
      You didn't actually read what he wrote but "followed the Damore case" which means you read what others wrote about him. That's extremely ignorant. I have no respect for people like you who get their opinion served by others. And that's something I can confidently say from your replies.

dxhdr 9y ago

> at a fundamental level, there are differences in how men and women think It's undeniable there are biological differences between men and women, but this seems far fetched. Biological differences don't manifest themselves in an intuitive way; for example, there is no difference between men and women's hair. However we perceive a large difference entirely due to environmental training.

Retric 9y ago
It would be odd for there it be zero observable differences considering how different many brain structures are between men and women. If nothing else women get migraines more frequently than men do. Which seems unlikely to come down to environmental issues.
- dxhdr 9y ago
  Are these differences in brain structure observable in the womb, or after years of growing? As an example, abuse victims can also have altered brain structures but they certainly weren't born that way.
33a 9y ago
Not that I disagree with the sentiment, but hair is a bad example. Men go bald and get beards, while women don't.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- ztjio 9y ago
  You must be young or not know very many women. Nearly every woman eventually starts growing facial hair. Many remove it every day. And some women do lose their hair, though admittedly it's much less common.
  - skinnymuch 9y ago
    Sure technically both genders grow facial hair. But still, men can grow much more hair on average than women, especially facial hair, no? South Asian females as an example sometimes can have more hair than average in many spots, but then you have many men with forest levels of hair around their body.

NiceGuy_Ty 9y ago

Every time I hear someone mention behavioral differences due to the biological differences between men and women, my response (that I'm stealing from my professor) is that the differences amongst men and women outweigh the differences between men and women. Applied to this topic, that means that you're going to find people that prefer these different learning styles on both sides of the gender gap. Also, I feel like wanting to increase the human aspect of programming isn't just a girl thing. The people whom I know that best fit the solitary hacker type love sharing their work, offering advice, and collaborating on projects with friends and peers.

skinnymuch 9y ago
> Every time I hear someone mention behavioral differences due to the biological differences between men and women, my response (that I'm stealing from my professor) is that the differences amongst men and women outweigh the differences between men and women. Applied to this topic, that means that you're going to find people that prefer these different learning styles on both sides of the gender gap. That's a great way of describing learning. I love your professor's quote. Definitely going to use it :P
darawk 9y ago
> Every time I hear someone mention behavioral differences due to the biological differences between men and women, my response (that I'm stealing from my professor) is that the differences amongst men and women outweigh the differences between men and women. Applied to this topic, that means that you're going to find people that prefer these different learning styles on both sides of the gender gap. That's a nice sentiment, but it's not actually very true. With regard to this particular article, I think there are plenty of women who can thrive in the environment she described. I know some of them. So, I don't think this particular situation is caused by divergent information processing between men and women. That being said, information processing is a multi-dimensional thing. The axes of difference between men and women may be different than the axes of variance among men and women. To say that "the differences among men and women outweigh the differences between men and women" is to ignore the fact that they may not be the same differences we're talking about. This is a thorny question, because it obviously implies that men are better at some things and women are better at other things. This can reinforce biases, and entrench or seem to justify unfair treatment. But the fact that an issue may be fraught does not change the truth-value of its propositions.

musage 9y ago

> we gain richer insights when we take both into account If there really were fundamental differences, that would not be possible. When I take someone elses viewpoint or way of thinking or anything else that is fundamentally different from what I know "into account", what I really take into account what I imagine that other viewpoint to be, cobbled together from the things I do know. I don't say this to contradict, I think empathy goes a long way and is a very real thing, even though it doesn't mean we magically see things how others do. And luckily we have communication. We can make our own viewpoints and feelings clear, and encourage others to be open about theirs. I'm wary about fundamental differences and all that.. spectra, maybe (I'm not sold on mutual exclusivity at all), but even then certainly not with one dimension and two poles -- but assuming it were literally that way, then there would be only halves, and nobody with an overview. Just abstractions about the other, which are useless, realize the self and let the other self self-realize, communicate, done. Sorry for sounding like a hippie, no dig against hippies intended. It's really hard to talk about this stuff, but not for political correctness and not for the assholes who take all sorts of things and misuse them anway, just in general.

jansho 9y ago
> If there really were fundamental differences, that would not be possible. I'm not really sure if I understood your point properly - I've clarified elsewhere in this thread that this was an assumption, and gender isn't the only factor in the differences of the ways we think (so when I said "both" in my parent comment, this is because I am looking at the situation solely with the gender lens). But I share with the general sentiment of your post. I'm don't really care for fundamental differences etc, even if we have them, so what, it still doesn't change the fact that diversity is generally a great thing. I also found empathy goes a long way, IMO that's the only way to deal with diversity and cut past discrimination. Of course there are also the intellectual and material rewards of diversity that we are all familiar with... Goodness, it's so hard to explain this, forgive me if this is just more confusing than ever.

kukx 9y ago

> This is why I dislike Damore. I don't care what his manifesto says ... Playing games is pathetic, dude. Well, according to his statement he was a top performer at Google, so we can assume he was not afraid of being replaced by a woman. Besides he just started a discussion in a response to, according to him, shady moves in regards of equality performed by Google. It is worth to listen to the other side: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDuVF7kiPU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDuVF7kiPU