8 ms·

And yet all of that absolutely pales in comparison to the legacy advantage almost exclusively white US university students have at the top Ivy League schools. B

by jedrek 9y ago

And yet all of that absolutely pales in comparison to the legacy advantage almost exclusively white US university students have at the top Ivy League schools. But sure, go chasing the race angle fed to you by the powers that be.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
randallsquared 9y ago
I have nothing interesting to say about the topic itself, but this struck me: "fed to you by the powers that be". One of the things that's most bizarre to me about rhetoric around culture war topics in America right now is that both sides want to take as an assumption that the other side is in charge. I'm not sure if this is more because, as a practical matter, existential threats tend to produce more alarm and action, or if it's more about the American love of the come-from-behind-to-win underdog trope.
- thriftwy 9y ago
  Exactly the same thing happens in Russian discourse. Both major "sides" see themself as suppressed and the other as being in charge. That allows to throw tantrums without ever admitting of mistakes. I wonder if it's universal in the age of learned helplessness.
  - throwawayjava 9y ago
    > in the age of learned helplessness It's nothing so new...
- sidlls 9y ago
  What's this "both sides" and "assumptions"? People who have wealth tend to have much better access to politicians and more control over the economic and social conditions and constraints of a society. Consider for example this: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B# https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli... There isn't a need to assume anything. To the extent it's possible to be in a social science, it is a fact that the connected elite (e.g. those who attend Ivy Leagues as a result of their wealth) is "in charge." It's debatable to the extent the data permit, but the "side" asserting the non-elite are "in charge" doesn't have much to offer on that front.
- kelukelugames 9y ago
  What you point out is true in most political discussions, but I don't believe it is the case here. The powers that be are not Republicans or Democrats. They are the schools and the alums.
hduwvzvshsuz 9y ago
Actually it's Jewish advantage at ivy league schools. We can't consider jews white only when it's beneficial to our narrative
- Draco_Au 9y ago
  Go fly a kite buddy.
- eesmith 9y ago
  For decades there was a policy to limit the number of Jews accepted to the ivy league. http://www.businessinsider.com/the-ivy-leagues-history-of-discriminating-against-jews-2014-12?r=US&IR=T http://www.businessinsider.com/the-ivy-leagues-history-of-di... : > Here's how Karabel sums up the new changes approved in 1926, which would effectively allow the Harvard administration to limit its Jewish student population: > The committee decisively rejected an admissions policy based on scholarship alone, stating that "it is neither feasible nor desirable to raise the standards of the College so high that none but brilliant scholars can enter" while stipulating that "the standards ought never to be so high for serious and ambitious students of average intelligence." > When the faculty formally approved the report eight days later, Lowell was further elated, for they also approved measures making the admissions process even more subjective. In particular, the faculty called on [Committee on Admissions chairman Henry Pennypacker] to interview as many applicants as possible to gather additional information on "character and fitness and the promise of the greatest usefulness in the future as a result of a Harvard education." Henceforth, declared the faculty, a passport-sized photo would be "required as an essential part of the application for admissions." > Elite colleges also began to use legacy admissions during this period — giving preference to children of alumni — in order to maintain a predominantly Protestant student body, Karabel explains.
  - hduwvzvshsuz 9y ago
    Harvard is 25% Jewish bud. Sorry but you're wrong. They make up like 1% of the population if that
    - 9y ago
Osmium 9y ago
> pales in comparison It's not a competition... To acknowledge one problem does not mean ignoring others. There is very real discrimination against people of Asian heritage in the US college system, with very similar parallels to discrimination against Jewish people in the past. To pretend this doesn't exist does all of the real individuals who've experienced it a disservice, as it would be a disservice to pretend that the extensive, institutional racism against black people is no longer an issue today when it clearly is. These are all problems worthy of attention. Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/25/opinion/is-harvard-unfair-to-asian-americans.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/25/opinion/is-harvard-unfair... "A similar injustice is at work today, against Asian-Americans. To get into the top schools, they need SAT scores that are about 140 points higher than those of their white peers." Edit to add: I don't know what the solution to this is, or what should be done. I just know if I was one of those people rejected, I'd feel pretty bad. And as a privileged majority, I want to be judged on my merits, I don't want to benefit from racism or xenophobia, if someone is better than me then they deserve my spot. And I've got to speak loudly about it (even though I'd much rather stay out of political discussions online), because to do otherwise is to passively accept the advantages given to me by this institutionalized racism, which is almost as bad as explicitly endorsing it. We've got to acknowledge it, talk about it ... Second edit: One very actionable thing is to make clear issues of access and discrimination are important issues when your college comes calling for donations. Ask them for their statistics, what their plans and intentions are. If enough people did it, this would matter. It would make a difference.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- wallace_f 9y ago
  The discrimination against Asians is in some cases arguably not that much worse than discrimination against Whites, or even sometimes data shows Whites are discriminated against more. Looking at LizzyM scores, for the most part Whites and Asians receive similar acceptance rates with similar scores, but in some cases Asians receive preference. You can see this w/ scores about 520 and 3.8(1). However, Asians are admitted as a far greater proportion of their race than Whites. Asians are about 5% of US population, but can make up over 40% of incoming classes in med school, while Whites, who are over 60% of the US population, were only 37%, in this typical example at Northwestern(1). Blacks, through affirmative action, enjoy a relatively equal proportion of matriculants as Whites, even though Blacks score on average many standard deviations lower than Whites and Asians. In many cases, a majority of Blacks are accepted with scores that Whites and Asians have, as data shows, a 0% chance of acceptance with. So what is fair? Right now, it is hardest to get in to med school as a White, but that is so extremely politically incorrect that no one dare say it. www.feinberg.northwestern.edu/admissions/how-to-apply/class-profile.html https://schools.studentdoctor.net/lizzym_score https://schools.studentdoctor.net/lizzym_score
oh_sigh 9y ago
Sure it pales in comparison. Having your house burgled pales in comparison to being in a high speed crash on a highway, but I still don't want either one. Also, who are 'the powers that be', if not the federal and most state governments which endorses race based admission policy? Oh, and one more thing: In 'civilized Europe', many countries have decided that affirmative action and race based admission standards are indeed racist, and are banned. Are 'the powers that be' operating over there too?
kelukelugames 9y ago
Legacy is bullshit. I don't see how anyone who wants meritocracy can support it. The children of Harvard alums already are privileged and have an edge, but the school gives them an official handicap too?
- wallace_f 9y ago
  Yep. With all the talk about privilege and White privilege that gets slapped equally on everyone from Trump Jr to Joe the Coalminer... It only adds to the pile of injustice, not subtract from it.

by jedrek 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

randallsquared 9y ago

I have nothing interesting to say about the topic itself, but this struck me: "fed to you by the powers that be". One of the things that's most bizarre to me about rhetoric around culture war topics in America right now is that both sides want to take as an assumption that the other side is in charge. I'm not sure if this is more because, as a practical matter, existential threats tend to produce more alarm and action, or if it's more about the American love of the come-from-behind-to-win underdog trope.

thriftwy 9y ago
Exactly the same thing happens in Russian discourse. Both major "sides" see themself as suppressed and the other as being in charge. That allows to throw tantrums without ever admitting of mistakes. I wonder if it's universal in the age of learned helplessness.
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  > in the age of learned helplessness It's nothing so new...
sidlls 9y ago
What's this "both sides" and "assumptions"? People who have wealth tend to have much better access to politicians and more control over the economic and social conditions and constraints of a society. Consider for example this: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B# https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli... There isn't a need to assume anything. To the extent it's possible to be in a social science, it is a fact that the connected elite (e.g. those who attend Ivy Leagues as a result of their wealth) is "in charge." It's debatable to the extent the data permit, but the "side" asserting the non-elite are "in charge" doesn't have much to offer on that front.
kelukelugames 9y ago
What you point out is true in most political discussions, but I don't believe it is the case here. The powers that be are not Republicans or Democrats. They are the schools and the alums.

hduwvzvshsuz 9y ago

Actually it's Jewish advantage at ivy league schools. We can't consider jews white only when it's beneficial to our narrative

Draco_Au 9y ago
Go fly a kite buddy.
eesmith 9y ago
For decades there was a policy to limit the number of Jews accepted to the ivy league. http://www.businessinsider.com/the-ivy-leagues-history-of-discriminating-against-jews-2014-12?r=US&IR=T http://www.businessinsider.com/the-ivy-leagues-history-of-di... : > Here's how Karabel sums up the new changes approved in 1926, which would effectively allow the Harvard administration to limit its Jewish student population: > The committee decisively rejected an admissions policy based on scholarship alone, stating that "it is neither feasible nor desirable to raise the standards of the College so high that none but brilliant scholars can enter" while stipulating that "the standards ought never to be so high for serious and ambitious students of average intelligence." > When the faculty formally approved the report eight days later, Lowell was further elated, for they also approved measures making the admissions process even more subjective. In particular, the faculty called on [Committee on Admissions chairman Henry Pennypacker] to interview as many applicants as possible to gather additional information on "character and fitness and the promise of the greatest usefulness in the future as a result of a Harvard education." Henceforth, declared the faculty, a passport-sized photo would be "required as an essential part of the application for admissions." > Elite colleges also began to use legacy admissions during this period — giving preference to children of alumni — in order to maintain a predominantly Protestant student body, Karabel explains.
- hduwvzvshsuz 9y ago
  Harvard is 25% Jewish bud. Sorry but you're wrong. They make up like 1% of the population if that
  - 9y ago

Osmium 9y ago

> pales in comparison It's not a competition... To acknowledge one problem does not mean ignoring others. There is very real discrimination against people of Asian heritage in the US college system, with very similar parallels to discrimination against Jewish people in the past. To pretend this doesn't exist does all of the real individuals who've experienced it a disservice, as it would be a disservice to pretend that the extensive, institutional racism against black people is no longer an issue today when it clearly is. These are all problems worthy of attention. Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/25/opinion/is-harvard-unfair-to-asian-americans.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/25/opinion/is-harvard-unfair... "A similar injustice is at work today, against Asian-Americans. To get into the top schools, they need SAT scores that are about 140 points higher than those of their white peers." Edit to add: I don't know what the solution to this is, or what should be done. I just know if I was one of those people rejected, I'd feel pretty bad. And as a privileged majority, I want to be judged on my merits, I don't want to benefit from racism or xenophobia, if someone is better than me then they deserve my spot. And I've got to speak loudly about it (even though I'd much rather stay out of political discussions online), because to do otherwise is to passively accept the advantages given to me by this institutionalized racism, which is almost as bad as explicitly endorsing it. We've got to acknowledge it, talk about it ... Second edit: One very actionable thing is to make clear issues of access and discrimination are important issues when your college comes calling for donations. Ask them for their statistics, what their plans and intentions are. If enough people did it, this would matter. It would make a difference.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
wallace_f 9y ago
The discrimination against Asians is in some cases arguably not that much worse than discrimination against Whites, or even sometimes data shows Whites are discriminated against more. Looking at LizzyM scores, for the most part Whites and Asians receive similar acceptance rates with similar scores, but in some cases Asians receive preference. You can see this w/ scores about 520 and 3.8(1). However, Asians are admitted as a far greater proportion of their race than Whites. Asians are about 5% of US population, but can make up over 40% of incoming classes in med school, while Whites, who are over 60% of the US population, were only 37%, in this typical example at Northwestern(1). Blacks, through affirmative action, enjoy a relatively equal proportion of matriculants as Whites, even though Blacks score on average many standard deviations lower than Whites and Asians. In many cases, a majority of Blacks are accepted with scores that Whites and Asians have, as data shows, a 0% chance of acceptance with. So what is fair? Right now, it is hardest to get in to med school as a White, but that is so extremely politically incorrect that no one dare say it. www.feinberg.northwestern.edu/admissions/how-to-apply/class-profile.html https://schools.studentdoctor.net/lizzym_score https://schools.studentdoctor.net/lizzym_score

oh_sigh 9y ago

Sure it pales in comparison. Having your house burgled pales in comparison to being in a high speed crash on a highway, but I still don't want either one. Also, who are 'the powers that be', if not the federal and most state governments which endorses race based admission policy? Oh, and one more thing: In 'civilized Europe', many countries have decided that affirmative action and race based admission standards are indeed racist, and are banned. Are 'the powers that be' operating over there too?

kelukelugames 9y ago

Legacy is bullshit. I don't see how anyone who wants meritocracy can support it. The children of Harvard alums already are privileged and have an edge, but the school gives them an official handicap too?

wallace_f 9y ago
Yep. With all the talk about privilege and White privilege that gets slapped equally on everyone from Trump Jr to Joe the Coalminer... It only adds to the pile of injustice, not subtract from it.