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The current academic system is rigged to produce a continual "shortage" of funding and jobs, no matter what the nominal budget is. If an average lab has 3 profe

The current academic system is rigged to produce a continual "shortage" of funding and jobs, no matter what the nominal budget is. If an average lab has 3 professors and 15 grad students, and the average professor stays for 40 years while the average grad student stays for 4, then in equilibrium only 2% of grad students can become professors.

HarryHirsch 9y ago
Back then, PhD graduates would be employed in industrial research labs, but with all the outsourcing that has gone on it's no surprise that the employment landscape looks as it does.
- shoguning 9y ago
  I wouldn't say outsourcing, it's just there's less industrial research in basic science going on in terms of dollars spent: https://www.vox.com/2015/2/4/7965967/corporate-research-basic-science https://www.vox.com/2015/2/4/7965967/corporate-research-basi...
- hkmurakami 9y ago
  I used to work at HP Labs. Outsourcing really isn't a factor at all. The main problem is that the mothership's core business has suffered, and budgets and timelines have been cut. In addition, newer companies seem to just license/use the research that comes out of universities (which has the aforementioned labor model) than take on the responsibilities themselves. (at least that has been my impression, but happy to be shown the err in my beliefs)
  - HarryHirsch 9y ago
    In pharmaceutical companies much of the stuff that used to be done in-house (synthesis, early discovery &c) is now contracted out to contract research organizations, often overseas. The knowledge-broker model has become more common, work that used to be done by staff scientists is now done by students and postdocs, the risk has been shifted from the company to the employees, and that really has made labour conditions worse.
kaosjester 9y ago
Don't forget the part where those graduate students do some 80% of the work and make <20% of the income of their their supervisor (and, in many cases, <10% or none at all in several), and the university hosting the lab absorbs some 50% of all grants "off the top." A half-million dollar grant pays a single graduate student less than 20k/year for maybe 5 years, which, in the context of other companies that get these grants, is absurd. Independent research firms working from the same grants pay their employees competitive wages and still accomplish research. If these companies could issue Ph.D.s, academia would shrivel and die: imagine working at a company for 4 years, getting a salary 3-4x what a graduate school would offer, doing real work in a professional setting, doing enough research to write a dissertation, and receiving a degree. The entire incentive to attend a university would melt away.
- cyht 9y ago
  They have this in some European countries like Denmark where it's called an "industrial PhD." However, they also compensate graduate students more fairly and seem to have more systematic and closer collaborations between academia and industry.
- mcguire 9y ago
  Such an independent research firm could grant Ph.D.s. Getting a Ph.D. in US universities like where I went is primarily a matter of satisfying a committee of existing Ph.D.s that the student has done suitably creditable work. A firm with good researchers, whose newly minted students also did good work, would soon have the suitable reputation. And those letters after your name are only as valuable as the reputation of the institution.
  - gaius 9y ago
    A PhD from say Microsoft Research ought to be as good as any. Or back in the day, Bell Labs.
  - PeterisP 9y ago
    At least my university does offer such an option, it's not often used, but sometimes is - if you've done (and published!) an appropriate amount of research in the industry, then you can apply to the committee to defend a thesis and get the degree without doing a PhD program. You still need to write the thesis, though, and it's much easier to do it while being paid as a PhD student/researcher.
sliverstorm 9y ago
Grad students were never intended to all become professors. Except perhaps in history

HarryHirsch 9y ago

Back then, PhD graduates would be employed in industrial research labs, but with all the outsourcing that has gone on it's no surprise that the employment landscape looks as it does.

shoguning 9y ago
I wouldn't say outsourcing, it's just there's less industrial research in basic science going on in terms of dollars spent: https://www.vox.com/2015/2/4/7965967/corporate-research-basic-science https://www.vox.com/2015/2/4/7965967/corporate-research-basi...
hkmurakami 9y ago
I used to work at HP Labs. Outsourcing really isn't a factor at all. The main problem is that the mothership's core business has suffered, and budgets and timelines have been cut. In addition, newer companies seem to just license/use the research that comes out of universities (which has the aforementioned labor model) than take on the responsibilities themselves. (at least that has been my impression, but happy to be shown the err in my beliefs)
- HarryHirsch 9y ago
  In pharmaceutical companies much of the stuff that used to be done in-house (synthesis, early discovery &c) is now contracted out to contract research organizations, often overseas. The knowledge-broker model has become more common, work that used to be done by staff scientists is now done by students and postdocs, the risk has been shifted from the company to the employees, and that really has made labour conditions worse.

kaosjester 9y ago

Don't forget the part where those graduate students do some 80% of the work and make <20% of the income of their their supervisor (and, in many cases, <10% or none at all in several), and the university hosting the lab absorbs some 50% of all grants "off the top." A half-million dollar grant pays a single graduate student less than 20k/year for maybe 5 years, which, in the context of other companies that get these grants, is absurd. Independent research firms working from the same grants pay their employees competitive wages and still accomplish research. If these companies could issue Ph.D.s, academia would shrivel and die: imagine working at a company for 4 years, getting a salary 3-4x what a graduate school would offer, doing real work in a professional setting, doing enough research to write a dissertation, and receiving a degree. The entire incentive to attend a university would melt away.

cyht 9y ago
They have this in some European countries like Denmark where it's called an "industrial PhD." However, they also compensate graduate students more fairly and seem to have more systematic and closer collaborations between academia and industry.
mcguire 9y ago
Such an independent research firm could grant Ph.D.s. Getting a Ph.D. in US universities like where I went is primarily a matter of satisfying a committee of existing Ph.D.s that the student has done suitably creditable work. A firm with good researchers, whose newly minted students also did good work, would soon have the suitable reputation. And those letters after your name are only as valuable as the reputation of the institution.
- gaius 9y ago
  A PhD from say Microsoft Research ought to be as good as any. Or back in the day, Bell Labs.
- PeterisP 9y ago
  At least my university does offer such an option, it's not often used, but sometimes is - if you've done (and published!) an appropriate amount of research in the industry, then you can apply to the committee to defend a thesis and get the degree without doing a PhD program. You still need to write the thesis, though, and it's much easier to do it while being paid as a PhD student/researcher.

sliverstorm 9y ago

Grad students were never intended to all become professors. Except perhaps in history