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> I understood you I'm sorry but you don't. (Also, don't I get to decide that, not you?) > Freedom of conscience seems pretty uncontroversial, and it's what P

by ggreer 9y ago

> I understood you I'm sorry but you don't. (Also, don't I get to decide that, not you?) > Freedom of conscience seems pretty uncontroversial, and it's what Paine is talking about in the quote you gave (on my interpretation). Paine and Mill weren't just talking about freedom of conscience or thought. Paine thought it crucial to hear others' ideas so that he could avoid being wrong. That requires the ideas be expressed. Likewise with Mill. Chapter 2 of On Liberty is titled "Of the Liberty of Thought and Discussion"[1]. Throughout the text, Mill defends expression as well as thought, and condemns the silencing of any expression of opinion: > But I deny the right of the people to exercise such coercion, either by themselves or by their government. The power itself is illegitimate. The best government has no more title to it than the worst. It is as noxious, or more noxious, when exerted in accordance with public opinion, than when in opposition to it. 1. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_Liberty/Chapter_2 https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_Liberty/Chapter_2

deleted 9y ago
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woodruffw 9y ago
> I'm sorry but you don't. (Also, don't I get to decide that, not you?) Yes, you do. Sorry if that came off as blunt - I only think that I understood you. You're right that Mill considers both thought and speech in On Liberty, which is why I said Paine and not Mill. That being said, Mill should be taken holistically -- he's a Utilitarian[1], and is firmly committed to his version of the principle of utility (the "Greatest Happiness Principle"). Reading a practical prescription of free speech as a moral (or even lesser, legal) prescription would lead to a contradiction in any circumstance where the GHP says that restricting speech would promote happiness (e.g., where incitement leads to murder). [1]: Specifically, on my interpretation, he's an act utilitarian. I've seen him read as an rule utilitarian (and parts 4 and on of his Utilitarianism can support that reading), but his first formulation of the GHP is pretty unambiguous: > [...] actions are right in proportion as they tend to promote happiness, wrong as they tend to produce the reverse of happiness [...]
noobermin 9y ago
I am going to discuss the concept of "free speech", not government regulation, because I don't think anyone at Charlottesville was arrested for just marching. The issue I have with the whole rational argument thing is that having to argue constantly and entertain every other opposing view requires me to expend time and energy to understanding viewpoints I disagree with. Why is the onus on me to understand others instead of them having to convince me? This is a debating tactic: you put the other chap on defense, forcing them to respond, which puts them in a weaker position. White supremacists, racists, climate deniers, and the like use this tactic online all the time, they pose dumb questions and make challenges, citing obscure sources that take time to prove false, all the while, they get what they want: they put you on defense taking time to defend the consensus while they have to demonstrate nothing in the meantime. These arguments get nowhere, because the people who posed them never were genuine in the first place. The intent was always to spread FUD and convince the uninformed that there's enough doubt to at least entertain the idea, and by the time you post your multi-paragraph reply (like I am here), most of the crowds' eyes have glazed over and the trolls already accomplished what they set out for. It gets to a point where these tactics are so tired that internet communities silence these voices wholesale, like here on HN, we don't rehash emacs vs vi or things like that over and over again and admins generally flag political threads. I know dang says they do it to keep the community from turning toxic, but the reason it gets toxic is because ideologues aren't really interested in an honest conversation, toxicity is their goal as I alluded to above. On a more personal level, you learn to not really entertain people when they bring up the Bell Curve or how "global cooling became global warming", and that isn't being close minded, that is not choosing not to feed the trolls.

by ggreer 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

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woodruffw 9y ago

> I'm sorry but you don't. (Also, don't I get to decide that, not you?) Yes, you do. Sorry if that came off as blunt - I only think that I understood you. You're right that Mill considers both thought and speech in On Liberty, which is why I said Paine and not Mill. That being said, Mill should be taken holistically -- he's a Utilitarian[1], and is firmly committed to his version of the principle of utility (the "Greatest Happiness Principle"). Reading a practical prescription of free speech as a moral (or even lesser, legal) prescription would lead to a contradiction in any circumstance where the GHP says that restricting speech would promote happiness (e.g., where incitement leads to murder). [1]: Specifically, on my interpretation, he's an act utilitarian. I've seen him read as an rule utilitarian (and parts 4 and on of his Utilitarianism can support that reading), but his first formulation of the GHP is pretty unambiguous: > [...] actions are right in proportion as they tend to promote happiness, wrong as they tend to produce the reverse of happiness [...]

noobermin 9y ago

I am going to discuss the concept of "free speech", not government regulation, because I don't think anyone at Charlottesville was arrested for just marching. The issue I have with the whole rational argument thing is that having to argue constantly and entertain every other opposing view requires me to expend time and energy to understanding viewpoints I disagree with. Why is the onus on me to understand others instead of them having to convince me? This is a debating tactic: you put the other chap on defense, forcing them to respond, which puts them in a weaker position. White supremacists, racists, climate deniers, and the like use this tactic online all the time, they pose dumb questions and make challenges, citing obscure sources that take time to prove false, all the while, they get what they want: they put you on defense taking time to defend the consensus while they have to demonstrate nothing in the meantime. These arguments get nowhere, because the people who posed them never were genuine in the first place. The intent was always to spread FUD and convince the uninformed that there's enough doubt to at least entertain the idea, and by the time you post your multi-paragraph reply (like I am here), most of the crowds' eyes have glazed over and the trolls already accomplished what they set out for. It gets to a point where these tactics are so tired that internet communities silence these voices wholesale, like here on HN, we don't rehash emacs vs vi or things like that over and over again and admins generally flag political threads. I know dang says they do it to keep the community from turning toxic, but the reason it gets toxic is because ideologues aren't really interested in an honest conversation, toxicity is their goal as I alluded to above. On a more personal level, you learn to not really entertain people when they bring up the Bell Curve or how "global cooling became global warming", and that isn't being close minded, that is not choosing not to feed the trolls.