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> what do you do when the fish are just gone? Move to where the fish are. The economy isn't terrible everywhere.

banned1 9y ago
This is the Hacker News' equivalent comment of "Let them eat cake". I hope things are going well in The Capitol. Where do you suppose they would live? Under a bridge in San Francisco? Unless you are going to host them.
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  Tangentially related, I do a bit of urban/suburban exploring on paths under overpasses or railroad right of ways and nearly every where I have been in California from San Francisco to San Diego there are homeless people living wherever there is a bit of shade.
hpcjoe 9y ago
Assume, as the story implies, that they haven't the money to move. Moving costs money. Exactly what should they do? Channeling Marie Antoinette is obviously not the right answer (e.g. moving to the jobs) as they are functionally immobile, and as the article notes, they are disabled. Note: the above question is somewhat rhetorical. There is no real answer, or rather no easy answer. Basic income may help, or it may delay eventual help.
- iamatworknow 9y ago
  "I'm going to start explaining to people, when you have an area that just isn't working like upper New York state, where people are getting very badly hurt, and then you'll have another area 500 miles away where you can't get people, I'm going to explain, you can leave. It's OK. Don't worry about your house." http://www.timesunion.com/7day-business/article/Trump-says-upstate-New-Yorkers-should-move-leave-11437258.php http://www.timesunion.com/7day-business/article/Trump-says-u...
- ianai 9y ago
  Also the economy is pretty terrible in most places. That if anything should be the biggest backing for a UBI.
  - thehardsphere 9y ago
    Really? We should subsidize broken economies in perpetuity, by allowing people to stay in them forever? I think that's only going to cement what we're already seeing, unless people use their UBI to buy luggage and bus fare.
    - ianai 9y ago
      Once people aren’t forced to labor for basic survival they will have options. Right now industry tends to be locality based and very insular. For instance, had Detroit had more than one major industry powering it then the collapse of manufacturing cars wouldn’t have hit them so critically. My point is UBI would increase peoples’ liberties with their time. Suddenly there could be all sorts of cottage industries built ip alongside the larger ones. In times of economic stress, like in all complex systems, diversity helps spread and diminish stress.
logfromblammo 9y ago
Ah, so we should abandon capital investment and revert to nomadic lifestyles, where swarms of people wander the landscape looking for work. They should be investing in their own caravan carts, rather than paying $300/month for just enough floor to throw down a mattress? Like Roma (Gypsy), Irish Travelers, or hoboes? Yes, those are all cultures valued well by the landowner class. You can't solve a regional problem by depopulating the region. You'll just end up with the same problems in the neighboring region. And in the metaphor, the fish are gone. As in extinct. Coal mining is dead. Natural gas extraction and green energy killed it. People still working in the industry are the isopods picking over the carcasses. Eventually, they will get down to the bones, and they too will have to find something else to eat.
monsieurgaufre 9y ago
Mobility is not the same for everyone for a multitude of reasons.
deadmetheny 9y ago
I know this is hard for valley drones with no loyalties to comprehend, but not everyone is able or afford to move in the first place, or willing to move even if they could scrape it. Moving is expensive and when the only thing in the world you have is your family and friends, would you just up and give that up? Especially for those who are not in their 20s. And where do you live when you do move, when you have no money to save and you have to struggle to live in a shack with no plumbing or kitchen or bed? "Just move" is not a tenable solution.
- ams6110 9y ago
  I live nowhere near "the valley" and yes, moving to where the work is is what people did in past hard times. Sometimes moving across the ocean (immigrants to the USA in the early 20th century). Maybe we should be helping people with relocation instead of enabling their miserable existence where they are.
  - deadmetheny 9y ago
    Yeah, things like Ellis Island and hobos riding the rails are really things we should aspire to return to. History is never wrong.
mythrwy 9y ago
It seems more practical to move the fish to where the people are.
- thehardsphere 9y ago
  You mean like, turn Appalachia into the Silicon Valley of the East? This is an old idea, and implementations of it almost never work. It's usually because there's some other facet of "the fish" that is difficult to replicate somewhere else, and people do the replicating in some cargo-cult fashion.

This is the Hacker News' equivalent comment of "Let them eat cake". I hope things are going well in The Capitol. Where do you suppose they would live? Under a bridge in San Francisco? Unless you are going to host them.

stevenwoo 9y ago
Tangentially related, I do a bit of urban/suburban exploring on paths under overpasses or railroad right of ways and nearly every where I have been in California from San Francisco to San Diego there are homeless people living wherever there is a bit of shade.

hpcjoe 9y ago

Assume, as the story implies, that they haven't the money to move. Moving costs money. Exactly what should they do? Channeling Marie Antoinette is obviously not the right answer (e.g. moving to the jobs) as they are functionally immobile, and as the article notes, they are disabled. Note: the above question is somewhat rhetorical. There is no real answer, or rather no easy answer. Basic income may help, or it may delay eventual help.

iamatworknow 9y ago
"I'm going to start explaining to people, when you have an area that just isn't working like upper New York state, where people are getting very badly hurt, and then you'll have another area 500 miles away where you can't get people, I'm going to explain, you can leave. It's OK. Don't worry about your house." http://www.timesunion.com/7day-business/article/Trump-says-upstate-New-Yorkers-should-move-leave-11437258.php http://www.timesunion.com/7day-business/article/Trump-says-u...
ianai 9y ago
Also the economy is pretty terrible in most places. That if anything should be the biggest backing for a UBI.
- thehardsphere 9y ago
  Really? We should subsidize broken economies in perpetuity, by allowing people to stay in them forever? I think that's only going to cement what we're already seeing, unless people use their UBI to buy luggage and bus fare.
  - ianai 9y ago
    Once people aren’t forced to labor for basic survival they will have options. Right now industry tends to be locality based and very insular. For instance, had Detroit had more than one major industry powering it then the collapse of manufacturing cars wouldn’t have hit them so critically. My point is UBI would increase peoples’ liberties with their time. Suddenly there could be all sorts of cottage industries built ip alongside the larger ones. In times of economic stress, like in all complex systems, diversity helps spread and diminish stress.

logfromblammo 9y ago

Ah, so we should abandon capital investment and revert to nomadic lifestyles, where swarms of people wander the landscape looking for work. They should be investing in their own caravan carts, rather than paying $300/month for just enough floor to throw down a mattress? Like Roma (Gypsy), Irish Travelers, or hoboes? Yes, those are all cultures valued well by the landowner class. You can't solve a regional problem by depopulating the region. You'll just end up with the same problems in the neighboring region. And in the metaphor, the fish are gone. As in extinct. Coal mining is dead. Natural gas extraction and green energy killed it. People still working in the industry are the isopods picking over the carcasses. Eventually, they will get down to the bones, and they too will have to find something else to eat.

monsieurgaufre 9y ago

Mobility is not the same for everyone for a multitude of reasons.

deadmetheny 9y ago

I know this is hard for valley drones with no loyalties to comprehend, but not everyone is able or afford to move in the first place, or willing to move even if they could scrape it. Moving is expensive and when the only thing in the world you have is your family and friends, would you just up and give that up? Especially for those who are not in their 20s. And where do you live when you do move, when you have no money to save and you have to struggle to live in a shack with no plumbing or kitchen or bed? "Just move" is not a tenable solution.

ams6110 9y ago
I live nowhere near "the valley" and yes, moving to where the work is is what people did in past hard times. Sometimes moving across the ocean (immigrants to the USA in the early 20th century). Maybe we should be helping people with relocation instead of enabling their miserable existence where they are.
- deadmetheny 9y ago
  Yeah, things like Ellis Island and hobos riding the rails are really things we should aspire to return to. History is never wrong.

mythrwy 9y ago

It seems more practical to move the fish to where the people are.

thehardsphere 9y ago
You mean like, turn Appalachia into the Silicon Valley of the East? This is an old idea, and implementations of it almost never work. It's usually because there's some other facet of "the fish" that is difficult to replicate somewhere else, and people do the replicating in some cargo-cult fashion.