6 ms·

Beijing Bytedance founder tries $1M pay for engineers

58 points by Geekette 9y ago

westiseast 9y ago
Slightly off topic, but just in case you're being headhunted by Chinese companies, make sure you understand your legal position on compensation in China. http://www.chinalawblog.com/2016/09/the-china-stock-option-scam.html http://www.chinalawblog.com/2016/09/the-china-stock-option-s...
- seppin 9y ago
  also, taking a Chinese investment into your company can be messy or downright disastrous. do your research
  - jmkni 9y ago
    Interesting, got any links with more info?
- Geekette 9y ago
  "no foreign person can own stock in a Chinese domestic company not already listed on a stock market." I'm already weary of startup stock/options - I'd consider it only in addition and not as replacement for portion of my target salary package. I definitely wouldn't waver in negotiations with companies outside N. America and I'd check with a lawyer for anything outside conventional salary. That post shows why one should seek a lawyer experienced in such in relation to expats.
  - techsupporter 9y ago
    Just being helpful in case you didn’t know: the word is “wary,” not “weary.” Wary means cautious; weary means tired.
    - Geekette 9y ago
      I did know and meant both but mostly weary as in tired of options being dangled as better (despite the almost zero value at time of offer and low chances of it appreciating further).
- amag 9y ago
  TL;DR; A foreigner is by law not allowed to own stock in unlisted Chinese companies. Some Chinese companies will use foreigners' ignorance of this to pay less but offer worthless stocks instead.
- lawlessone 9y ago
  I imagine it would also be very hard to take your pay home if you decided to leave China?
  - westiseast 9y ago
    It is getting a bit more of a pain, but the bottom line is that if you earned your money legally, you take your tax records and paperwork to the bank and transfer to your hearts delight.
jmkni 9y ago
This was on HN a couple of days ago, I'll try and find the discussion link... Edit: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15327455 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15327455
- Geekette 9y ago
  Ahh. I missed the other post because it's from a different source with a very generic headline. Before posting, I typically search for the URL and/or non-generic words from story headline to verify it hasn't already been posted.
  - jmkni 9y ago
    Yeah I had to work back the way from Google, the HN search didn't return any results
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
holydude 9y ago
China and Russia are here to stay. The US and the EU needs to make sure that our companies can fairly compete on their markets.
- marindez 9y ago
  Or we can resort to protectionism.
  - holydude 9y ago
    Protectionism in some areas is fine. I do not know what would be the correct solution though. It is understandable for China to want their local corps to build base in china ( like wechat, baidu and others ). But at some point they should ease the laws for companies like facebook to be able to operate in China as well.
    - logfromblammo 9y ago
      I'm not certain that you understand how China (as in the People's Republic of China) works. They have a completely different tradition of philosophy and ethics from the west. Yes, from our perspective, they should ease those laws. From their perspective, there is no disadvantage to them in keeping them in place as long as it is possible. It would literally take international pressure similar to the Eight-Nation Alliance, Boxer War, and "century of humiliation" to temporarily stop China from favoring domestic companies with operating restrictions and to stop sweeping it under the rug whenever those companies blatantly cheat, steal from, and infringe upon the imaginary property of foreigners and foreign corporations. The existing Chinese government sees international trade partners as resources to be exploited for the benefit of China (and also its government officials, naturally). Foreign companies are cutting their own throats to try to access the billion people of the Chinese domestic marketplace, and the Chinese companies are catching the blood and making sausages from it. People are going in with Adam Smith in mind, and getting Sun Tzu in response. Facebook should not be operating in China. It shouldn't even be wanting to operate in China. It either gets eaten by Tencent directly, or Tencent copies every last byte of technology Facebook deploys in China, then the government tweaks their Firewall to block Facebook long enough for people to switch to the copy, and Facebook can no longer compete. If you are not Chinese, there is no long-term future for your business in China. And in China, that is considered virtuous governance. In the west, fair and non-discriminatory dealings are considered virtuous, but China is not the west. They have been their own thing for thousands of years, and their thing is not your thing. You can make money in China in the short term, but the only way to continue that into the long term is to viciously protect the secrets of your competitive advantage. Patents, copyrights, and trademarks won't help you. Well written contracts won't save you. The only reasonable way to operate in China is to keep all the critical elements of your operation somewhere else. Never give a Chinese company your source code or engineering documents, unless you want to see your work in a competitor's products. If you want to work with all those brilliant Chinese people, make it easier for entire families to emigrate to your country. As long as they remain in PRC jurisdiction, or have significant ties back to people remaining in it, they will never truly be working for you, or even with you.
noobermin 9y ago
An aside, but why is an aggregator valued so much more (factors above!) the actual originator of information and actual reporters on the ground? Merely the market is larger (being China) or what? Absent of context, such valuations appear to outsiders as just another bullet point under the skepticism there is around the validity of such valuations.
- dis-sys 9y ago
  and it is not a good aggregator, most content suggested by their app is of low quality when compared to content you can find on other Chinese apps, e.g. zhihu.
- Geekette 9y ago
  I wondered as much, given how easy it is to aggregate (vs create) content. Relative first mover, first dazzler advantage, I guess.
- antonvs 9y ago
  I believe the logic is that "the actual originator of information and actual reporters on the ground" have a much less direct monetary relationship with the customers. Whether that's valid or not is a separate question, but it has more to do with how the money flows than who produces what.
scottlegrand2 9y ago
Who needs to go to China for this? This is on par with the very high end of engineering salaries at Facebook. What's extraordinary here IMO is that this company is being open about it rather than behaving like such compensation is on some secret menu you can only order from HR with a counter offer in hand.

58 points by Geekette 9y ago

Slightly off topic, but just in case you're being headhunted by Chinese companies, make sure you understand your legal position on compensation in China. http://www.chinalawblog.com/2016/09/the-china-stock-option-scam.html http://www.chinalawblog.com/2016/09/the-china-stock-option-s...

seppin 9y ago
also, taking a Chinese investment into your company can be messy or downright disastrous. do your research
- jmkni 9y ago
  Interesting, got any links with more info?
Geekette 9y ago
"no foreign person can own stock in a Chinese domestic company not already listed on a stock market." I'm already weary of startup stock/options - I'd consider it only in addition and not as replacement for portion of my target salary package. I definitely wouldn't waver in negotiations with companies outside N. America and I'd check with a lawyer for anything outside conventional salary. That post shows why one should seek a lawyer experienced in such in relation to expats.
- techsupporter 9y ago
  Just being helpful in case you didn’t know: the word is “wary,” not “weary.” Wary means cautious; weary means tired.
  - Geekette 9y ago
    I did know and meant both but mostly weary as in tired of options being dangled as better (despite the almost zero value at time of offer and low chances of it appreciating further).
amag 9y ago
TL;DR; A foreigner is by law not allowed to own stock in unlisted Chinese companies. Some Chinese companies will use foreigners' ignorance of this to pay less but offer worthless stocks instead.
lawlessone 9y ago
I imagine it would also be very hard to take your pay home if you decided to leave China?
- westiseast 9y ago
  It is getting a bit more of a pain, but the bottom line is that if you earned your money legally, you take your tax records and paperwork to the bank and transfer to your hearts delight.

jmkni 9y ago

This was on HN a couple of days ago, I'll try and find the discussion link... Edit: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15327455 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15327455

Geekette 9y ago
Ahh. I missed the other post because it's from a different source with a very generic headline. Before posting, I typically search for the URL and/or non-generic words from story headline to verify it hasn't already been posted.
- jmkni 9y ago
  Yeah I had to work back the way from Google, the HN search didn't return any results

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

holydude 9y ago

China and Russia are here to stay. The US and the EU needs to make sure that our companies can fairly compete on their markets.

marindez 9y ago
Or we can resort to protectionism.
- holydude 9y ago
  Protectionism in some areas is fine. I do not know what would be the correct solution though. It is understandable for China to want their local corps to build base in china ( like wechat, baidu and others ). But at some point they should ease the laws for companies like facebook to be able to operate in China as well.
  - logfromblammo 9y ago
    I'm not certain that you understand how China (as in the People's Republic of China) works. They have a completely different tradition of philosophy and ethics from the west. Yes, from our perspective, they should ease those laws. From their perspective, there is no disadvantage to them in keeping them in place as long as it is possible. It would literally take international pressure similar to the Eight-Nation Alliance, Boxer War, and "century of humiliation" to temporarily stop China from favoring domestic companies with operating restrictions and to stop sweeping it under the rug whenever those companies blatantly cheat, steal from, and infringe upon the imaginary property of foreigners and foreign corporations. The existing Chinese government sees international trade partners as resources to be exploited for the benefit of China (and also its government officials, naturally). Foreign companies are cutting their own throats to try to access the billion people of the Chinese domestic marketplace, and the Chinese companies are catching the blood and making sausages from it. People are going in with Adam Smith in mind, and getting Sun Tzu in response. Facebook should not be operating in China. It shouldn't even be wanting to operate in China. It either gets eaten by Tencent directly, or Tencent copies every last byte of technology Facebook deploys in China, then the government tweaks their Firewall to block Facebook long enough for people to switch to the copy, and Facebook can no longer compete. If you are not Chinese, there is no long-term future for your business in China. And in China, that is considered virtuous governance. In the west, fair and non-discriminatory dealings are considered virtuous, but China is not the west. They have been their own thing for thousands of years, and their thing is not your thing. You can make money in China in the short term, but the only way to continue that into the long term is to viciously protect the secrets of your competitive advantage. Patents, copyrights, and trademarks won't help you. Well written contracts won't save you. The only reasonable way to operate in China is to keep all the critical elements of your operation somewhere else. Never give a Chinese company your source code or engineering documents, unless you want to see your work in a competitor's products. If you want to work with all those brilliant Chinese people, make it easier for entire families to emigrate to your country. As long as they remain in PRC jurisdiction, or have significant ties back to people remaining in it, they will never truly be working for you, or even with you.

noobermin 9y ago

An aside, but why is an aggregator valued so much more (factors above!) the actual originator of information and actual reporters on the ground? Merely the market is larger (being China) or what? Absent of context, such valuations appear to outsiders as just another bullet point under the skepticism there is around the validity of such valuations.

dis-sys 9y ago
and it is not a good aggregator, most content suggested by their app is of low quality when compared to content you can find on other Chinese apps, e.g. zhihu.
Geekette 9y ago
I wondered as much, given how easy it is to aggregate (vs create) content. Relative first mover, first dazzler advantage, I guess.
antonvs 9y ago
I believe the logic is that "the actual originator of information and actual reporters on the ground" have a much less direct monetary relationship with the customers. Whether that's valid or not is a separate question, but it has more to do with how the money flows than who produces what.

scottlegrand2 9y ago

Who needs to go to China for this? This is on par with the very high end of engineering salaries at Facebook. What's extraordinary here IMO is that this company is being open about it rather than behaving like such compensation is on some secret menu you can only order from HR with a counter offer in hand.