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> No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money... Naked apologism. So unthoughtful, and delivered with such a righteous tone. If this was their

by jonahx 9y ago

> No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money... Naked apologism. So unthoughtful, and delivered with such a righteous tone. If this was their intention, they could have implemented the feature honestly, informing users about what was happening, and offering a clear choice, such as an immediate popup, between "turn off for this location" and "turn off completely." That would have been fine. But the existence of this "pro" to the deceptive and confusing behavior does not justify it.

IBM 9y ago
They did inform users. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208086 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208086
- beager 9y ago
  I fail to see how dumping documentation for a cryptic feature at such an unfriendly URL counts as "informing".
  - IBM 9y ago
    The UI informs the user directly that they're disconnecting from a network. This support document explains the change and how it all works in-depth for anyone who will actually care to know (everyone who reads HN or tech blogs and pretty much no one else).
    - flukus 9y ago
      > The UI informs the user directly that they're disconnecting from a network. The UI (mis)informs the user that wifi has been turned off by greying it out, at the very least it's inconsistent with other toggle buttons. Or are there other things apple decides that you don't really want turned off?
    - beager 9y ago
      Can you describe a reasonable scenario where a layperson would see the support document prior to encountering some sort of frustration with the feature in question?
    - jonahx 9y ago
      > The UI informs the user directly that they're disconnecting from a network. I'm honestly confused... Do you really believe that most users have distinct concepts in their mental model for "wifi off" and "disconnected from a network"? They look at the button, it's not blue anymore, it's off. Then later they think... "Wait how did this randomly turn on again?" I believe this will be the experience even of the majority of tech savvy users, let alone typical ones.
      - IBM 9y ago
        Most users when turning "off" Wi-Fi, particularly from the control center, are doing so to get them off whatever network they're on. What their mental model is for what "Wi-Fi off" is doesn't matter because the user shouldn't be responsible for managing the radios in their phone. And any of them that do try to are probably under the impression that it saves them battery life, when it actually doesn't (unless connected and transmitting). The new control center behaves in the way that most people actually use the buttons. More importantly it solves a major problem in that it no longer requires the user to know what radios need to be on for various features they use to work. Apple probably has all the support call stats they need to decide this was a better behavior.
        jonahx 9y ago
        > What their mental model is for what "Wi-Fi off" is doesn't matter It always matters if you're trying to minimize user frustration and confusion. The mental model determines what the user expects their actions to do. > because the user shouldn't be responsible for managing the radios in their phone. > The new control center behaves in the way that most people actually use the buttons. More importantly it solves a major problem in that it no longer requires the user to know what radios need to be on for various features they use to work. I don't think anyone (certainly not me) is arguing that this isn't a useful feature for the phone to have and is what many people want, at least some of the time. The argument is that the feature's behavior should be clear rather than misleading. > Apple probably has all the support call stats they need to decide this was a better behavior. Again, fine, but don't suggest one thing and silently do the "better" thing. Either allow the user to confirm the behavior, or create a UI that clarifies the behavior so people aren't misled into believing that "off until 5am" or "off until you move" means "off."
morganvachon 9y ago
"offering the option to actually turn the services off." I'm not getting into the rest of your discussion, but I think you completely missed that you can indeed actually turn them off via 3D touch. Even on non-3D touch devices like the iPad mini, you can get to the "actually off" toggles by long-pressing the icons. Sure, it's somewhat of an extra step, but it's misleading to claim that the option doesn't exist when it clearly does.
- comex 9y ago
  You can? On my phone, deep pressing on the 'block' in Control Center containing the Wi-Fi icon gets me to a submenu, which adds text labels to the existing toggles and adds two more toggles (AirDrop and Personal Hotspot). However, pressing the Wi-Fi button from that submenu seems to have the same effect as outside of it, and deep pressing it (as well as long pressing it) has no effect. edit: but you can definitely turn them off through the Settings app.
  - blub 9y ago
    I can't, it's complete bullshit as I don't even have any devices paired. The long press is useless, it does nothing.
  - morganvachon 9y ago
    As I said elsewhere, I repeated the GP's claim without testing it myself, assuming good faith on his part. After testing I found it wasn't true. Unfortunately I can't edit my original comment now, so I've been apologizing throughout the thread.
- vacri 9y ago
  Apple changed the behaviour of something that people have been using since the first smartphone (before, even), without indicating that to the user. Saying that the option is there when it's poorly-discoverable doesn't really counter the GP's point.
  - stephen_g 9y ago
beedogs 9y ago
> Naked apologism. So unthoughtful, and delivered with such a righteous tone. And, of course, voted up to the very top of the comments section here, as usual. The Apple apologists here are a bit of a plague.
- mtgx 9y ago
  I thought Apple fanboism was a dying breed around here. I guess I was wrong.
  - simonh 9y ago
    More clarification, it's a plague of fanbois bringing down the tone of the neighbourhood. Engage in reasoned debate? Agree to disagree? Wonder if there's a point to their opinion at all? Nope, maybe we should drive them out of the neighbourhood into a ghetto somewhere else so Hackernews can be nice and pure instead.
- simonh 9y ago
  Disagreeing with you makes someone part of a plague. Got it. Reasoned argument failed to convince everyone everywhere, so now let's impugn their humanity. I'm sure that will work!
794CD01 9y ago
Prompting the user every time for a nuance they likely don't understand instead of just doing the thing they want 99% of the time is bad UX.

by jonahx 9y ago

IBM 9y ago

They did inform users. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208086 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208086

beager 9y ago
I fail to see how dumping documentation for a cryptic feature at such an unfriendly URL counts as "informing".
- IBM 9y ago
  The UI informs the user directly that they're disconnecting from a network. This support document explains the change and how it all works in-depth for anyone who will actually care to know (everyone who reads HN or tech blogs and pretty much no one else).
  - flukus 9y ago
    > The UI informs the user directly that they're disconnecting from a network. The UI (mis)informs the user that wifi has been turned off by greying it out, at the very least it's inconsistent with other toggle buttons. Or are there other things apple decides that you don't really want turned off?
  - beager 9y ago
    Can you describe a reasonable scenario where a layperson would see the support document prior to encountering some sort of frustration with the feature in question?
  - jonahx 9y ago
    > The UI informs the user directly that they're disconnecting from a network. I'm honestly confused... Do you really believe that most users have distinct concepts in their mental model for "wifi off" and "disconnected from a network"? They look at the button, it's not blue anymore, it's off. Then later they think... "Wait how did this randomly turn on again?" I believe this will be the experience even of the majority of tech savvy users, let alone typical ones.
    - IBM 9y ago
      Most users when turning "off" Wi-Fi, particularly from the control center, are doing so to get them off whatever network they're on. What their mental model is for what "Wi-Fi off" is doesn't matter because the user shouldn't be responsible for managing the radios in their phone. And any of them that do try to are probably under the impression that it saves them battery life, when it actually doesn't (unless connected and transmitting). The new control center behaves in the way that most people actually use the buttons. More importantly it solves a major problem in that it no longer requires the user to know what radios need to be on for various features they use to work. Apple probably has all the support call stats they need to decide this was a better behavior.
      - jonahx 9y ago
        > What their mental model is for what "Wi-Fi off" is doesn't matter It always matters if you're trying to minimize user frustration and confusion. The mental model determines what the user expects their actions to do. > because the user shouldn't be responsible for managing the radios in their phone. > The new control center behaves in the way that most people actually use the buttons. More importantly it solves a major problem in that it no longer requires the user to know what radios need to be on for various features they use to work. I don't think anyone (certainly not me) is arguing that this isn't a useful feature for the phone to have and is what many people want, at least some of the time. The argument is that the feature's behavior should be clear rather than misleading. > Apple probably has all the support call stats they need to decide this was a better behavior. Again, fine, but don't suggest one thing and silently do the "better" thing. Either allow the user to confirm the behavior, or create a UI that clarifies the behavior so people aren't misled into believing that "off until 5am" or "off until you move" means "off."

morganvachon 9y ago

"offering the option to actually turn the services off." I'm not getting into the rest of your discussion, but I think you completely missed that you can indeed actually turn them off via 3D touch. Even on non-3D touch devices like the iPad mini, you can get to the "actually off" toggles by long-pressing the icons. Sure, it's somewhat of an extra step, but it's misleading to claim that the option doesn't exist when it clearly does.

comex 9y ago
You can? On my phone, deep pressing on the 'block' in Control Center containing the Wi-Fi icon gets me to a submenu, which adds text labels to the existing toggles and adds two more toggles (AirDrop and Personal Hotspot). However, pressing the Wi-Fi button from that submenu seems to have the same effect as outside of it, and deep pressing it (as well as long pressing it) has no effect. edit: but you can definitely turn them off through the Settings app.
- blub 9y ago
  I can't, it's complete bullshit as I don't even have any devices paired. The long press is useless, it does nothing.
- morganvachon 9y ago
  As I said elsewhere, I repeated the GP's claim without testing it myself, assuming good faith on his part. After testing I found it wasn't true. Unfortunately I can't edit my original comment now, so I've been apologizing throughout the thread.
vacri 9y ago
Apple changed the behaviour of something that people have been using since the first smartphone (before, even), without indicating that to the user. Saying that the option is there when it's poorly-discoverable doesn't really counter the GP's point.
- stephen_g 9y ago

beedogs 9y ago

> Naked apologism. So unthoughtful, and delivered with such a righteous tone. And, of course, voted up to the very top of the comments section here, as usual. The Apple apologists here are a bit of a plague.

mtgx 9y ago
I thought Apple fanboism was a dying breed around here. I guess I was wrong.
- simonh 9y ago
  More clarification, it's a plague of fanbois bringing down the tone of the neighbourhood. Engage in reasoned debate? Agree to disagree? Wonder if there's a point to their opinion at all? Nope, maybe we should drive them out of the neighbourhood into a ghetto somewhere else so Hackernews can be nice and pure instead.
simonh 9y ago
Disagreeing with you makes someone part of a plague. Got it. Reasoned argument failed to convince everyone everywhere, so now let's impugn their humanity. I'm sure that will work!

794CD01 9y ago

Prompting the user every time for a nuance they likely don't understand instead of just doing the thing they want 99% of the time is bad UX.