10 ms·

> Our media and our government lied to generate a case for war. And I feel lately that they are now trying to build a case for some sort of conflict, presumably

> Our media and our government lied to generate a case for war. And I feel lately that they are now trying to build a case for some sort of conflict, presumably cold, against Russia I mean, there's verifiable evidence Russia tried to influence our election. That's pretty new for a lot of Americans. I imagine that's why the government and the media are running wild with it. Mueller is still investigating. I would say to wait till that report comes out before jumping to conclusions. I personally don't think the media and government are gearing up for some Russia conflict. This is just the first time Russia has been so involved in our politics since the Cold War, and the media is rightly running with that idea. Is it that unbelievable for some people that Russia was involved in trying to influence our election? I can't tell if you're rightly scared of the media or just can't believe Russia would do something bad. With respect to the quality of work at the NSA? "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" And finally with respect to all the leaking... I think it's pretty clear that's just the NSA's lack of confidence in its leader.

Consultant32452 9y ago
>I mean, there's verifiable evidence Russia tried to influence our election. That's pretty new for a lot of Americans. That might be new for a lot of Americans, but not for anyone who has ever paid any sort of attention to international politics. In reality it would've been bigger news if Russia hadn't tried to influence our election. And that's not specific to Russia, I'd say that about any major economic power including allies. >since the Cold War We've been in a proxy hot war with Russia for years. Syria is a major Russian ally and a big part of our activity in Syria is to reduce the regional influence/power of Russia. >I can't tell if you're rightly scared of the media One would think that a group of people whose job it is to report on global politics would understand how much of a certainty it is that Russia would try to impact all of our elections. And yet they're pretending like this is shocking. I can forgive the general public, but any media outlet feigning shock is bold faced lying.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
c3534l 9y ago
Where is this verifiable evidence so I can actually verify it?
- dmix 9y ago
  It's only been ~1yr since the election. You have to be patient for big cases like this. Until then we have to trust the US intelligence community. Their messaging has been consistent that their arch-enemy they've been competing with for decades pulled a fast one on them and was unexpectedly effective at influencing an election. Government sources have been leaking a bunch of stuff to the press in the meantime. This week it was alleged "Russian-linked" sources supporting the Republican party had bought Facebook ads [1] in the critical swing states: > A number of Russian-linked Facebook ads specifically targeted Michigan and Wisconsin, two states crucial to Donald Trump's victory last November, according to four sources with direct knowledge of the situation. Two states which Clinton's $500 million campaign reportedly neglected [2] despite the pleas of her former-president husband and advisors: > Clinton made no visits to Wisconsin as the Democratic nominee, and only pushed a late charge in Michigan once internal polling showed the race tightening. The other big leak was that of the hundreds of people the Trump campaign staff met and had phone calls with in 2016, it turns out 2-3 of them had connections to the Russian government. But it's not clear if they had any follow up meetings. I'm looking forward to the full report showing the "critical role" Russia played in getting him elected... [1] http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/03/politics/russian-facebook-ads-michigan-wisconsin/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/03/politics/russian-facebook-ads-... [2] http://wtvr.com/2016/11/11/bill-clinton-strategy/ http://wtvr.com/2016/11/11/bill-clinton-strategy/
  - c3534l 9y ago
    > You have to be patient for big cases like this So in other words, no “verifiable“ proof at all, just rumors, hearsay, and unbacked assertions. > Until then we have to trust the US intelligence community. Sorry, no. Their success rate and overall trustworthiness is abysmal, let alone it's foolish to trust secret data even if it weren't the case.
    - 9y ago
notyourday 9y ago
> I mean, there's verifiable evidence Russia tried to influence our election. That's pretty new for a lot of Americans. I imagine that's why the government and the media are running wild with it. Mueller is still investigating. I would say to wait till that report comes out before jumping to conclusions. I'm shocked, shocked, shocked there's gambling going on here! Shocked! We are the only ones who are supposed to be doing that!
zghst 9y ago
We are witness to the return of menace and mischief by a motivated adversary, nonetheless they have always had their hand in US and EU politics. The revisionist, election hacking narrative is a massive thoughtform, propped up by some savvy scoop every couple of weeks just to die down and go nowhere. Everything the media covers is tainted by an air of sentimentality and idealism, hardly great elements of good journalism, but it sells papers. Those who think they really know men like Putin, those who believe they really know and understand evil, you will never know them. People who think they know live in a world of black and white, right and wrong, living within society but not operating in the raw layers of society where people make civilization a reality. Men like Putin, they live in this space, desperately trying to keep their reality/world alive. The way they do this is the same how we keep ours alive, they lie. Russians tell very good lies, they are very good at making whole new truths, but if you look very closely, it starts to come apart.
- linkregister 9y ago
  What non-fringe authorities or publications are claiming that the election was hacked?
philipov 9y ago
I crush your Hanlon's Razor with my Grey's Law: "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice."
DrScump 9y ago
I think it's pretty clear that's just the NSA's lack of confidence in its leader. The leak addressed in this article stems from 2015.
- rdtsc 9y ago
  I think he meant Obama. By 2015 many have given up on hope and change. Unless the hope was to drop over 20k bombs on countries we were not even at war with after receiving a Nobel Peace prize. Overthrow governments in Middle East and arm dangerous rebels in that region.
  - VVayneTracker 9y ago
    Don't forget state sanctioned extrajudicial killing of U.S. citizens.
rdtsc 9y ago
> I mean, there's verifiable evidence Russia tried to influence our election. No doubt, I don't think anyone argues that point. Russia and ex-Soviet Union's KGB have always tried to manipulate Western governments. Propaganda and planting stories in newspapers was one of their favorite methods. Any developed country would be trying. US is too important for anyone with any power or resource to not try to influence it. However I don't believe what they did had any meaningful effect on US elections. We would have found out by now. I didn't believe it since it came out and I still don't. So far I see a PR story that has gone out of hand, it was pushed and promoted in order to explain what happened. Heck, people tell that story to themselves. "Surely, my compatriots couldn't have voted this, way, it must have been some super villain spy thing". > This is just the first time Russia has been so involved in our politics since the Cold War, and the media is rightly running with that idea. When did Russia stop involved being in our politics. It sent undercover spies to live and try to infiltrate think tanks and such. Remember the spy ring that was uncovered. Literal KGB agents living illegally around NY and such. That stuff never stopped. > Is it that unbelievable for some people that Russia was involved in trying to influence our election? It is unbelievable that they singled out Russians and keep running with it for a year without any proof that the Russian did anything to change the result of the election. The amount of talk this received, it would seem they have proof the Russian changed the votes in those Rust Belt states' voting machines. Unless we think those states are full of KGB agents this is story is mostly a waste of time. And yes, the tragedy here is the opportunity cost of wasting energy on something like this instead of focusing efforts and coming with a new platform for the Democrat party, starting a new party. Instead its Russia, Trump said a stupid thing, his taxes, more Russia, he ate 2 scoops of ice-cream, back to Russia. Sure they tried, they deserve some credit: http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/24/politics/democratic-agenda-unveiling-virginia-event/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/24/politics/democratic-agenda-unv... --- "Schumer: Democrats' top priority is health care, not Russia" The plan -- "A Better Deal: Better Jobs, Better Wages, Better Future" -- is a three-pronged approach that focuses on improving wages, lowering costs of everyday expenses and boosting job-training opportunities. --- But compared to Russia and the piss dossier and scoops of ice-cream that doesn't seem to interest very many people (if we assume media reflects and presents to people what they really want to hear).

Consultant32452 9y ago

>I mean, there's verifiable evidence Russia tried to influence our election. That's pretty new for a lot of Americans. That might be new for a lot of Americans, but not for anyone who has ever paid any sort of attention to international politics. In reality it would've been bigger news if Russia hadn't tried to influence our election. And that's not specific to Russia, I'd say that about any major economic power including allies. >since the Cold War We've been in a proxy hot war with Russia for years. Syria is a major Russian ally and a big part of our activity in Syria is to reduce the regional influence/power of Russia. >I can't tell if you're rightly scared of the media One would think that a group of people whose job it is to report on global politics would understand how much of a certainty it is that Russia would try to impact all of our elections. And yet they're pretending like this is shocking. I can forgive the general public, but any media outlet feigning shock is bold faced lying.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

c3534l 9y ago

Where is this verifiable evidence so I can actually verify it?

dmix 9y ago
It's only been ~1yr since the election. You have to be patient for big cases like this. Until then we have to trust the US intelligence community. Their messaging has been consistent that their arch-enemy they've been competing with for decades pulled a fast one on them and was unexpectedly effective at influencing an election. Government sources have been leaking a bunch of stuff to the press in the meantime. This week it was alleged "Russian-linked" sources supporting the Republican party had bought Facebook ads [1] in the critical swing states: > A number of Russian-linked Facebook ads specifically targeted Michigan and Wisconsin, two states crucial to Donald Trump's victory last November, according to four sources with direct knowledge of the situation. Two states which Clinton's $500 million campaign reportedly neglected [2] despite the pleas of her former-president husband and advisors: > Clinton made no visits to Wisconsin as the Democratic nominee, and only pushed a late charge in Michigan once internal polling showed the race tightening. The other big leak was that of the hundreds of people the Trump campaign staff met and had phone calls with in 2016, it turns out 2-3 of them had connections to the Russian government. But it's not clear if they had any follow up meetings. I'm looking forward to the full report showing the "critical role" Russia played in getting him elected... [1] http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/03/politics/russian-facebook-ads-michigan-wisconsin/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/03/politics/russian-facebook-ads-... [2] http://wtvr.com/2016/11/11/bill-clinton-strategy/ http://wtvr.com/2016/11/11/bill-clinton-strategy/
- c3534l 9y ago
  > You have to be patient for big cases like this So in other words, no “verifiable“ proof at all, just rumors, hearsay, and unbacked assertions. > Until then we have to trust the US intelligence community. Sorry, no. Their success rate and overall trustworthiness is abysmal, let alone it's foolish to trust secret data even if it weren't the case.
  - 9y ago

notyourday 9y ago

> I mean, there's verifiable evidence Russia tried to influence our election. That's pretty new for a lot of Americans. I imagine that's why the government and the media are running wild with it. Mueller is still investigating. I would say to wait till that report comes out before jumping to conclusions. I'm shocked, shocked, shocked there's gambling going on here! Shocked! We are the only ones who are supposed to be doing that!

zghst 9y ago

We are witness to the return of menace and mischief by a motivated adversary, nonetheless they have always had their hand in US and EU politics. The revisionist, election hacking narrative is a massive thoughtform, propped up by some savvy scoop every couple of weeks just to die down and go nowhere. Everything the media covers is tainted by an air of sentimentality and idealism, hardly great elements of good journalism, but it sells papers. Those who think they really know men like Putin, those who believe they really know and understand evil, you will never know them. People who think they know live in a world of black and white, right and wrong, living within society but not operating in the raw layers of society where people make civilization a reality. Men like Putin, they live in this space, desperately trying to keep their reality/world alive. The way they do this is the same how we keep ours alive, they lie. Russians tell very good lies, they are very good at making whole new truths, but if you look very closely, it starts to come apart.

linkregister 9y ago
What non-fringe authorities or publications are claiming that the election was hacked?

philipov 9y ago

I crush your Hanlon's Razor with my Grey's Law: "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice."

DrScump 9y ago

I think it's pretty clear that's just the NSA's lack of confidence in its leader. The leak addressed in this article stems from 2015.

rdtsc 9y ago
I think he meant Obama. By 2015 many have given up on hope and change. Unless the hope was to drop over 20k bombs on countries we were not even at war with after receiving a Nobel Peace prize. Overthrow governments in Middle East and arm dangerous rebels in that region.
- VVayneTracker 9y ago
  Don't forget state sanctioned extrajudicial killing of U.S. citizens.

rdtsc 9y ago

> I mean, there's verifiable evidence Russia tried to influence our election. No doubt, I don't think anyone argues that point. Russia and ex-Soviet Union's KGB have always tried to manipulate Western governments. Propaganda and planting stories in newspapers was one of their favorite methods. Any developed country would be trying. US is too important for anyone with any power or resource to not try to influence it. However I don't believe what they did had any meaningful effect on US elections. We would have found out by now. I didn't believe it since it came out and I still don't. So far I see a PR story that has gone out of hand, it was pushed and promoted in order to explain what happened. Heck, people tell that story to themselves. "Surely, my compatriots couldn't have voted this, way, it must have been some super villain spy thing". > This is just the first time Russia has been so involved in our politics since the Cold War, and the media is rightly running with that idea. When did Russia stop involved being in our politics. It sent undercover spies to live and try to infiltrate think tanks and such. Remember the spy ring that was uncovered. Literal KGB agents living illegally around NY and such. That stuff never stopped. > Is it that unbelievable for some people that Russia was involved in trying to influence our election? It is unbelievable that they singled out Russians and keep running with it for a year without any proof that the Russian did anything to change the result of the election. The amount of talk this received, it would seem they have proof the Russian changed the votes in those Rust Belt states' voting machines. Unless we think those states are full of KGB agents this is story is mostly a waste of time. And yes, the tragedy here is the opportunity cost of wasting energy on something like this instead of focusing efforts and coming with a new platform for the Democrat party, starting a new party. Instead its Russia, Trump said a stupid thing, his taxes, more Russia, he ate 2 scoops of ice-cream, back to Russia. Sure they tried, they deserve some credit: http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/24/politics/democratic-agenda-unveiling-virginia-event/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/24/politics/democratic-agenda-unv... --- "Schumer: Democrats' top priority is health care, not Russia" The plan -- "A Better Deal: Better Jobs, Better Wages, Better Future" -- is a three-pronged approach that focuses on improving wages, lowering costs of everyday expenses and boosting job-training opportunities. --- But compared to Russia and the piss dossier and scoops of ice-cream that doesn't seem to interest very many people (if we assume media reflects and presents to people what they really want to hear).