6 ms·

Edge is a good browser, people seem to default to criticizing it because of its infamous predecessor. We should root for Edge, it is in the open Web best intere

Edge is a good browser, people seem to default to criticizing it because of its infamous predecessor. We should root for Edge, it is in the open Web best interest to have several browsers sharing the market.

jccalhoun 9y ago
Edge extensions got off to a slow start which hurt it quite a bit for me. Now it has a decent (although still small) number of extensions that cover most of the must-haves for me. It is my number 3 browser behind firefox and chrome.
AndrewCHM 9y ago
Its good technology-wise, but out of all the browsers I've touched, its the one that I feel like I have the least control over
- RKearney 9y ago
  One of the biggest reasons I can't use Edge is I think it's impossible to actually inspect an HTTPS certificate.
newscracker 9y ago
I tried Edge on Windows 10 last year for a while, but had some issues with Outlook Web Access. And the way of managing proxies (among other things) is mixed up and confusing in Windows 10 - it has the old way of handling settings and a new Settings application. It’s not bug free and doesn’t satisfy basic conditions (searching for proxy in settings doesn’t work - need to know how to get to it). Anyway, back on topic - I switched back to IE 11. I have to try Edge again and see how it’s improved and changed during this time.
- nozzlegear 9y ago
  It looks like that's changed in the Insiders build I'm on (the one releasing later this month). I've got Proxy Settings under Edge's Advanced Settings menu: https://i.imgur.com/zPHcYL3.png https://i.imgur.com/zPHcYL3.png And searching for Proxy gives me all of these options: https://i.imgur.com/BDEzNWW.png https://i.imgur.com/BDEzNWW.png
vdnkh 9y ago
I want to root for it but there are API differences (especially for video/text tracks) which make it hard or impossible to work with. And Microsoft hasn't yet come to the table (which Apple/Chrome/FF have been at and are very good with taking feedback from devs) to standardize on these APIs.
remotelifestyle 9y ago
Edge is not a good browser. It is holding the web back with its slow adoption of HTML5 standards. (source: https://html5test.com/compare/browser/chrome-58/edge-12.html https://html5test.com/compare/browser/chrome-58/edge-12.html) Edge still has a spoof referrer header vulnerability that's been known for more than 6 months now: https://www.brokenbrowser.com/referer-spoofing-patch-bypass/ https://www.brokenbrowser.com/referer-spoofing-patch-bypass/
- kylealden 9y ago
  The version of Edge you're linking to on HTML5Test there is two years and four major versions out of date. Edge 16 is more than 100 points higher on HTML5Test. More generally, there's a lot more to making the web great than a blind sprint to adopt every API. Just because it isn't shipping doesn't mean Microsoft isn't a (very) active participant in the standards conversations, testing behind flags, etc. That is a huge part of moving the web forward. Take Grid as an example - we were the last browser to ship the updated spec, so you could say we "held it back." But we also originated the first version of the spec and worked closely with the community, standards bodies, and other browser vendors on making sure what ultimately shipped cross-browser this year was great, useful, and interoperable. Is that holding the web back? (Disclaimer: Edge employee)
  - mixedbit 9y ago
    To add another example, WebVR API cleanup was inspired by Microsoft that joined the group working on this API. Edge isn't yet shipping WebVR, but they are helping with the work.
    - kylealden 9y ago
      Good example! Though, for the record, WebVR 1.1 is shipping in EdgeHTML 15. Fair to call it a preview, since consumer headsets won't be available until later this month with the Fall Creators Update, at which point end-to-end support will work out of the box.
- Artemis2 9y ago
infinityplus1 9y ago
The developer tools of Chrome and Firefox are better. There are more addons. There is more customization.
pjc50 9y ago
Edge isn't great if you use tabs; it tends to lose them on crash/restart and doesn't make it easy to have lots of them. It also seems to suffer from the same weird font rendering as a lot of Metro apps.
- megaman22 9y ago
  Edge isn't great period. There are too many janky UI and design choices - probably because it is part of that whole benighted Metro ecosystem. The thing that really drove me nuts was how the address bar jumps around when you're trying to select part of a URL, which makes it so much harder than it ought to be when you are trying to click and drag with a mouse, let alone a touch interface.
  - latkin 9y ago
    Agree completely. I'm a heavy Windows/Office/.NET/F#/Powershell user, overall a fan of MS ecosystem, but Edge is still just plain painful to actually use day to day. Chrome remains far ahead. I'd say "1000 papercuts" but maybe 5-10k is closer. Jumping address bar? Ohhhh yeah hate that one: https://twitter.com/LincolnAtkinson/status/887035613009989632 https://twitter.com/LincolnAtkinson/status/88703561300998963...
  - YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 9y ago
    One thing that catches me surprisingly often when I use Edge (which is very, very rarely, contributing to this), is that all the browser controls, like Back, stay in focus when you click them until you click something else. I don't think any other common browser has this behaviour, which is why I'm not used to un-focusing them, and the next press of space definitely does something I did not intend it to do.
- jackfoxy 9y ago
  Exactly this. I lose my open tabs every 2 weeks or so. I've reported this to the black hole of Edge feedback on numerous occasions. How hard can this be to get right?
ZeroGravitas 9y ago
Or we should shun it, so that if anyone else decides to use their monopoly power to try to destroy the web, they know the consequences will be long lasting.
- jeffdavis 9y ago
  We shun a browser, some other company sees that, and decides not to become a monopoly? Sounds implausible. MSFT has new leadership and is cooperating much with open platforms more than ever before. Let's encourage that.
  - CaptSpify 9y ago
    Lets encourage that if it is due. It looks like Edge is still proprietary. If they opened it up, I'd give it a shot. As it is still closed off, I'm personally not interested.
yesimahuman 9y ago
I agree that it's good to have multiple browser _products_, but why is it better that MSFT has its own engine instead of investing in OSS ones like webkit/blink? This is the same question I have for Firefox. They can still achieve their privacy goals without having to invest in and maintain a separate engine. Is having a unique engine really all that beneficial in the long run?
- jeffdavis 9y ago
  There should be some freedom to render the same page in different ways. Lynx is an extreme version, but there is lots of room to consider different platforms, environments, input devices and users.
  - s73ver_ 9y ago
    Why? When I design a page, I know what I want it to look like. I don't want to have to waste a bunch of my time in compatibility hacks to get around crap that they do different.
    - CaptSpify 9y ago
      I always thought we had this backwards. We should abandon sending the UA altogether and design pages according to the standards. If a browser doesn't render then correctly, then tell the browser to fix their shit. I realize that nowadays this isn't as simple as that, but if we had started along that path, things would be much better now.
      - ConceptJunkie 9y ago
        IIUC, we _did_ start out that way. it was probably Microsoft that first started differentiating itself by adding non-standard features and functionality. EEE, ya know.
      - s73ver_ 9y ago
        Unfortunately I don't have anywhere near the clout to be able to tell Microsoft to do that. And in the meantime, my users look at a broken site.
MikusR 9y ago
I have an Atom 2in1 and Edge is unusably slow and buggy on it. Chrome and Firefox work fine. It's also impossible to click and select part of url as it jumps around.
wdr1 9y ago
No. Root for other browsers, sure. But Microsoft's? No. They wantonly abused their market position in the 90s & stalled the advancement of the web for years. There many other worth products to cheer for rather than the latest offering from a habitual bad actor.
- yahna 9y ago
  So the alternative is google who do the same damn things. The real problem is this is still webkit/blink and ultimately control still goes to google.

jccalhoun 9y ago

Edge extensions got off to a slow start which hurt it quite a bit for me. Now it has a decent (although still small) number of extensions that cover most of the must-haves for me. It is my number 3 browser behind firefox and chrome.

AndrewCHM 9y ago

Its good technology-wise, but out of all the browsers I've touched, its the one that I feel like I have the least control over

RKearney 9y ago
One of the biggest reasons I can't use Edge is I think it's impossible to actually inspect an HTTPS certificate.

newscracker 9y ago

I tried Edge on Windows 10 last year for a while, but had some issues with Outlook Web Access. And the way of managing proxies (among other things) is mixed up and confusing in Windows 10 - it has the old way of handling settings and a new Settings application. It’s not bug free and doesn’t satisfy basic conditions (searching for proxy in settings doesn’t work - need to know how to get to it). Anyway, back on topic - I switched back to IE 11. I have to try Edge again and see how it’s improved and changed during this time.

nozzlegear 9y ago
It looks like that's changed in the Insiders build I'm on (the one releasing later this month). I've got Proxy Settings under Edge's Advanced Settings menu: https://i.imgur.com/zPHcYL3.png https://i.imgur.com/zPHcYL3.png And searching for Proxy gives me all of these options: https://i.imgur.com/BDEzNWW.png https://i.imgur.com/BDEzNWW.png

vdnkh 9y ago

I want to root for it but there are API differences (especially for video/text tracks) which make it hard or impossible to work with. And Microsoft hasn't yet come to the table (which Apple/Chrome/FF have been at and are very good with taking feedback from devs) to standardize on these APIs.

remotelifestyle 9y ago

Edge is not a good browser. It is holding the web back with its slow adoption of HTML5 standards. (source: https://html5test.com/compare/browser/chrome-58/edge-12.html https://html5test.com/compare/browser/chrome-58/edge-12.html) Edge still has a spoof referrer header vulnerability that's been known for more than 6 months now: https://www.brokenbrowser.com/referer-spoofing-patch-bypass/ https://www.brokenbrowser.com/referer-spoofing-patch-bypass/

kylealden 9y ago
The version of Edge you're linking to on HTML5Test there is two years and four major versions out of date. Edge 16 is more than 100 points higher on HTML5Test. More generally, there's a lot more to making the web great than a blind sprint to adopt every API. Just because it isn't shipping doesn't mean Microsoft isn't a (very) active participant in the standards conversations, testing behind flags, etc. That is a huge part of moving the web forward. Take Grid as an example - we were the last browser to ship the updated spec, so you could say we "held it back." But we also originated the first version of the spec and worked closely with the community, standards bodies, and other browser vendors on making sure what ultimately shipped cross-browser this year was great, useful, and interoperable. Is that holding the web back? (Disclaimer: Edge employee)
- mixedbit 9y ago
  To add another example, WebVR API cleanup was inspired by Microsoft that joined the group working on this API. Edge isn't yet shipping WebVR, but they are helping with the work.
  - kylealden 9y ago
    Good example! Though, for the record, WebVR 1.1 is shipping in EdgeHTML 15. Fair to call it a preview, since consumer headsets won't be available until later this month with the Fall Creators Update, at which point end-to-end support will work out of the box.
Artemis2 9y ago

infinityplus1 9y ago

The developer tools of Chrome and Firefox are better. There are more addons. There is more customization.

pjc50 9y ago

Edge isn't great if you use tabs; it tends to lose them on crash/restart and doesn't make it easy to have lots of them. It also seems to suffer from the same weird font rendering as a lot of Metro apps.

megaman22 9y ago
Edge isn't great period. There are too many janky UI and design choices - probably because it is part of that whole benighted Metro ecosystem. The thing that really drove me nuts was how the address bar jumps around when you're trying to select part of a URL, which makes it so much harder than it ought to be when you are trying to click and drag with a mouse, let alone a touch interface.
- latkin 9y ago
  Agree completely. I'm a heavy Windows/Office/.NET/F#/Powershell user, overall a fan of MS ecosystem, but Edge is still just plain painful to actually use day to day. Chrome remains far ahead. I'd say "1000 papercuts" but maybe 5-10k is closer. Jumping address bar? Ohhhh yeah hate that one: https://twitter.com/LincolnAtkinson/status/887035613009989632 https://twitter.com/LincolnAtkinson/status/88703561300998963...
- YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 9y ago
  One thing that catches me surprisingly often when I use Edge (which is very, very rarely, contributing to this), is that all the browser controls, like Back, stay in focus when you click them until you click something else. I don't think any other common browser has this behaviour, which is why I'm not used to un-focusing them, and the next press of space definitely does something I did not intend it to do.
jackfoxy 9y ago
Exactly this. I lose my open tabs every 2 weeks or so. I've reported this to the black hole of Edge feedback on numerous occasions. How hard can this be to get right?

ZeroGravitas 9y ago

Or we should shun it, so that if anyone else decides to use their monopoly power to try to destroy the web, they know the consequences will be long lasting.

jeffdavis 9y ago
We shun a browser, some other company sees that, and decides not to become a monopoly? Sounds implausible. MSFT has new leadership and is cooperating much with open platforms more than ever before. Let's encourage that.
- CaptSpify 9y ago
  Lets encourage that if it is due. It looks like Edge is still proprietary. If they opened it up, I'd give it a shot. As it is still closed off, I'm personally not interested.

yesimahuman 9y ago

I agree that it's good to have multiple browser _products_, but why is it better that MSFT has its own engine instead of investing in OSS ones like webkit/blink? This is the same question I have for Firefox. They can still achieve their privacy goals without having to invest in and maintain a separate engine. Is having a unique engine really all that beneficial in the long run?

jeffdavis 9y ago
There should be some freedom to render the same page in different ways. Lynx is an extreme version, but there is lots of room to consider different platforms, environments, input devices and users.
- s73ver_ 9y ago
  Why? When I design a page, I know what I want it to look like. I don't want to have to waste a bunch of my time in compatibility hacks to get around crap that they do different.
  - CaptSpify 9y ago
    I always thought we had this backwards. We should abandon sending the UA altogether and design pages according to the standards. If a browser doesn't render then correctly, then tell the browser to fix their shit. I realize that nowadays this isn't as simple as that, but if we had started along that path, things would be much better now.
    - ConceptJunkie 9y ago
      IIUC, we _did_ start out that way. it was probably Microsoft that first started differentiating itself by adding non-standard features and functionality. EEE, ya know.
    - s73ver_ 9y ago
      Unfortunately I don't have anywhere near the clout to be able to tell Microsoft to do that. And in the meantime, my users look at a broken site.

MikusR 9y ago

I have an Atom 2in1 and Edge is unusably slow and buggy on it. Chrome and Firefox work fine. It's also impossible to click and select part of url as it jumps around.

wdr1 9y ago

No. Root for other browsers, sure. But Microsoft's? No. They wantonly abused their market position in the 90s & stalled the advancement of the web for years. There many other worth products to cheer for rather than the latest offering from a habitual bad actor.

yahna 9y ago
So the alternative is google who do the same damn things. The real problem is this is still webkit/blink and ultimately control still goes to google.