5 ms·

Can chance make you a killer?

30 points by jonp 16y ago

MindTwister 16y ago
As with everything there is always multiple factors, one of them being chance, this article (interactive no less) seems to highlight this very well. I guess the rest of us not in the hospital business can use this to be weary of statistics and data presented to us, even when provided from a reliable source. When gathering our own statistics its often necessary to do that for a prolonged period in order to let the data reveal what and what isn't pure chance.
scotty79 16y ago
100 operations is really small sample for something that happens once in a 100. If you have chance 1/100 of death then with sample 100 you have to have 0 or 1 deaths to fit in 60% but with sample 200 you can have 0,1,2,3 deaths to still fit. It's just 60% is harsh limit for small samples. There should be some lower limit on sample size you have to gather for given probability before you start judging. Either that or threshold should depend on sample size and probability, but limiting sample size might be easier to understand for general public.
- dinedal 16y ago
  I wish that journalistic integrity extended into statistical analysis, and that the bar for understanding of basic statistics were raised so that someone with a high school degree would be as irked as you or I about poor excuses for analysis.
  - goodside 16y ago
    Wishing for normal people to understand statistics isn't reasonable. I'd also like a pony. But the first point is important: journalists shouldn't be allowed to publish statistical musings without some oversight from a statistician, which any reputable paper would have on staff anyway to avoid basic mistakes. Journalists would never be allowed to speculate as freely as this in deciding questions of climate science or molecular biology, but once it's a question of statistics everyone is instantly an expert.
    - hugh3 16y ago
      Perhaps statistics, (of the relatively advanced variety rather than the mean-mode-median variety), should be inserted into every high school student's curriculum. It is, after all, far more important to the life of the average citizen than, say, trigonometry or calculus. And it ought to be easier to understand.
- vannevar 16y ago
  I think perhaps you're missing the point. Even if you run the number to 1000, or even 10,000, you're eventually going to get outliers. In the real world, precisely because most people have no understanding of statistics, significant public policy decisions with real impact on people's lives would be made on the basis of events that happened merely by chance. Cancer clusters for instance trigger all kinds of legal action and political grandstanding, yet such outliers are statistically inevitable.
carbocation 16y ago
They are describing a basic Monte Carlo simulation. It shows you that, given a certain distribution, some subset of trials will exceed some arbitrary cutoff. But, well, of course! This must be topical in Britain - is there some flap about death rates going on there? Perhaps there is some concern about too-stringent cutoffs being used there to try to catch bad physicians? The real take-home here is that if you set your 'warning' threshold to be too low, you'll get a lot of warnings. Here, they used an arbitrary cutoff of 8 as their warning threshold. A fairer move would have been to allow some data to come back, try to infer a distribution and it's parameters, and then set future cutoffs based on those parameters. One could even continuously recalculate based on incoming data.
- tomjen3 16y ago
  >They are describing a basic Monte Carlo simulation. It shows you that, given a certain distribution, some subset of trials will exceed some arbitrary cutoff. But, well, of course! Of course for you and me maybe, but many people wouldn't think of that.
- jonp 16y ago
  I don't think there's anything particularly topical about death rates here in the UK right now. The author together with Michael Dilnot presented a radio show "More or Less" which covered lots of topics of this sort, showing how maths can aid an understanding of the world in general and current affairs in particular. Their book "The Tiger That Isn't" (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tiger-That-Isnt-Through-Numbers/dp/1861978391 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tiger-That-Isnt-Through-Numbers/dp/1...) is excellent and includes some other examples around sample size and regression to mean. One thing that struck me from the article was how computers and Monte Carlo simulations have lowered the barrier to entry for statistical understanding. It seems much simpler to run this sort of simulation than to understand the intricacies of different probability distributions.
  - carbocation 16y ago
    I agree, but understanding probability distributions is actually key to this simulation that they've performed. The results would differ, greatly, by running it with a uniform vs normal vs binomial distribution, or by tuning their parameters.
known 16y ago
"You are a product of your environment." --Clement Stone

30 points by jonp 16y ago

As with everything there is always multiple factors, one of them being chance, this article (interactive no less) seems to highlight this very well. I guess the rest of us not in the hospital business can use this to be weary of statistics and data presented to us, even when provided from a reliable source. When gathering our own statistics its often necessary to do that for a prolonged period in order to let the data reveal what and what isn't pure chance.

scotty79 16y ago

100 operations is really small sample for something that happens once in a 100. If you have chance 1/100 of death then with sample 100 you have to have 0 or 1 deaths to fit in 60% but with sample 200 you can have 0,1,2,3 deaths to still fit. It's just 60% is harsh limit for small samples. There should be some lower limit on sample size you have to gather for given probability before you start judging. Either that or threshold should depend on sample size and probability, but limiting sample size might be easier to understand for general public.

dinedal 16y ago
I wish that journalistic integrity extended into statistical analysis, and that the bar for understanding of basic statistics were raised so that someone with a high school degree would be as irked as you or I about poor excuses for analysis.
- goodside 16y ago
  Wishing for normal people to understand statistics isn't reasonable. I'd also like a pony. But the first point is important: journalists shouldn't be allowed to publish statistical musings without some oversight from a statistician, which any reputable paper would have on staff anyway to avoid basic mistakes. Journalists would never be allowed to speculate as freely as this in deciding questions of climate science or molecular biology, but once it's a question of statistics everyone is instantly an expert.
  - hugh3 16y ago
    Perhaps statistics, (of the relatively advanced variety rather than the mean-mode-median variety), should be inserted into every high school student's curriculum. It is, after all, far more important to the life of the average citizen than, say, trigonometry or calculus. And it ought to be easier to understand.
vannevar 16y ago
I think perhaps you're missing the point. Even if you run the number to 1000, or even 10,000, you're eventually going to get outliers. In the real world, precisely because most people have no understanding of statistics, significant public policy decisions with real impact on people's lives would be made on the basis of events that happened merely by chance. Cancer clusters for instance trigger all kinds of legal action and political grandstanding, yet such outliers are statistically inevitable.

carbocation 16y ago

They are describing a basic Monte Carlo simulation. It shows you that, given a certain distribution, some subset of trials will exceed some arbitrary cutoff. But, well, of course! This must be topical in Britain - is there some flap about death rates going on there? Perhaps there is some concern about too-stringent cutoffs being used there to try to catch bad physicians? The real take-home here is that if you set your 'warning' threshold to be too low, you'll get a lot of warnings. Here, they used an arbitrary cutoff of 8 as their warning threshold. A fairer move would have been to allow some data to come back, try to infer a distribution and it's parameters, and then set future cutoffs based on those parameters. One could even continuously recalculate based on incoming data.

tomjen3 16y ago
>They are describing a basic Monte Carlo simulation. It shows you that, given a certain distribution, some subset of trials will exceed some arbitrary cutoff. But, well, of course! Of course for you and me maybe, but many people wouldn't think of that.
jonp 16y ago
I don't think there's anything particularly topical about death rates here in the UK right now. The author together with Michael Dilnot presented a radio show "More or Less" which covered lots of topics of this sort, showing how maths can aid an understanding of the world in general and current affairs in particular. Their book "The Tiger That Isn't" (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tiger-That-Isnt-Through-Numbers/dp/1861978391 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tiger-That-Isnt-Through-Numbers/dp/1...) is excellent and includes some other examples around sample size and regression to mean. One thing that struck me from the article was how computers and Monte Carlo simulations have lowered the barrier to entry for statistical understanding. It seems much simpler to run this sort of simulation than to understand the intricacies of different probability distributions.
- carbocation 16y ago
  I agree, but understanding probability distributions is actually key to this simulation that they've performed. The results would differ, greatly, by running it with a uniform vs normal vs binomial distribution, or by tuning their parameters.

known 16y ago

"You are a product of your environment." --Clement Stone