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Wow, shocking to read of such deep capitulation from a country like Norway, which positions itself as egalitarian and goes the extra mile in various areas such

Wow, shocking to read of such deep capitulation from a country like Norway, which positions itself as egalitarian and goes the extra mile in various areas such as excluding certain companies from investment by its global sovereign fund on ethical grounds[1]. This was also chilling to read: "And when the Dalai Lama was invited to Norway in 2014 by the Norwegian Nobel Committee to celebrate his receiving the Nobel Peace Prize 25 years earlier, conservative Prime Minister Erna Solberg refused to meet with him, as did every single member of Solberg’s government. Due to warnings from China, His Holiness was not even allowed in to the Norwegian Parliament’s formal reception room, despite the room being empty during the time of his visit." [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway#Excluded_companies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Nor...

imron 9y ago
> Wow, shocking to read of such deep capitulation from a country like Norway China forces every country that it has normalised relations with to adhere to the 'One China' policy. Does your country have a Chinese embassy in it? Guess what, your country adheres to the 'One China' policy too.
- semperdark 9y ago
  Perhaps, but in many cases recognition that there should be "One China" also comes with the implication that Taiwan's government should be the one ruling the "One China". Did you read the linked article? Norway's statements were absolutely humiliating, most countries absolutely do not go that far.
  - imron 9y ago
    > Perhaps, but in many cases recognition that there should be "One China" also comes with the implication that Taiwan's government should be the one ruling the "One China". Correct. All it is, is the acknowledgement that there aren't two countries called China, and if you want to do business with China, then the People's Republic of China is the only China you are allowed to officially recognise. > Did you read the linked article? Yes. Other countries do go that far too.
- Geekette 9y ago
  Pretty sure other countries' recognition of (which does not necessarily equate to acceptance or support of) China's position on this do not extend to the level of sovereign embarrassment and capitulation outlined in the post.
  - imron 9y ago
    Other countries capitulate rather easily also: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/11/dalai-lama-pope-francis_n_6312012.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/11/dalai-lama-pope-fra... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/tibet/9717544/David-Cameron-banned-ministers-from-speaking-to-Dalai-Lama.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/tibet/9717544... http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/08/30/pm-has-no-plans-meet-dalai-lama-china-warns-against-meeting http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/08/30/pm-has-no-plan... And there are many more examples. As China's influence grows, so too will the list of examples. Note: I'm not in support of this, just stating the current reality.
  - barkingcat 9y ago
    Pretty sure you are mistaken. All countries that have normalized relations with China have to officially abide by the One China policy. If not, they will pull trade, or go to a state of de facto war with you. This is why Canada does not have a Taiwanese embassy. Instead, there are Taiwanese Trade offices which act unofficially as embassies in everything but name. In all countries with Chinese embassies, this is the case.
  - jonnathanson 9y ago
    As barkingcat suggests, pretty much every country on the planet that has normalized diplomatic relations with China formally accepts the One China policy. This is part of China's chess strategy for forcing the world to accept its ownership of Taiwan. I will go out on a limb for a second and suggest that the day will come soon enough when the United States formally bends the knee on this issue as well. We are headed in that direction much faster than anyone anticipated. The 'free world' has chosen to worship the Almighty Dollar as its lord and sovereign. China is where most of your dollars come from now. Ergo, China has the mandate of market-capitalist heaven, and you work for China now.
- mikeash 9y ago
  It's one thing to officially adhere to "One China" and quite another to shun respected people that China doesn't like. Do other countries do that second one? The US seems to have no problem allowing the Dalai Lama to meet the President, for example.
  - imron 9y ago
    > Do other countries do that second one? Unfortunately yes: http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/08/30/pm-has-no-plans-meet-dalai-lama-china-warns-against-meeting http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/08/30/pm-has-no-plan...
  - fhood 9y ago
    Well, the US can piss off China with relative impunity. We represent 18 percent of their exports, and their currency is pegged to the dollar. Norway is less influential.
    - imron 9y ago
      Relative, yes, but not total. When the Dalai Lama met with Obama, it was a 'private' visit not an official one and they met in the Map room rather than the Oval Office, which apparently has different diplomatic implications. Even with all its clout, the US still needs to dance around the issue.
fpoling 9y ago
Unfortunately the fish farming industry lobby in Norway is too strong to adhere to those principals when negotiating with China.
zokier 9y ago
I don't get why this is such a big deal or "deep capitulation". Its a statement, seems more like net win for Norway, they got concrete economical benefits by trading in some (empty) words. While the treatment of Dalai Lama was unfortunate, it also happened before this normalization, during a period of appeasement. Now that the relations are bit better again and an agreement has been reached, I would expect (somewhat paradoxically) Norways line against China to harden gradually again.
- dmix 9y ago
  I doubt Norway alone could make a meaningful impact on China's social and geopolitical policy either. But like any type of protests it always takes one person to stand up to get the ball rolling, hopefully making some persuasive points, for others to join in to create real pressure. Yet China has perfected their anti-western propaganda machine, when it's not censored it's to turned into victimization narratives or other reversals. The only 'real' pressure would be a united front with real economic costs imposed on China. That'd have to start somewhere but the efficacy must be honestly considered vs the very real costs China could impose in return against a single weaker opponent. Considering many other bigger western countries have capitulated to China in similar ways, far quieter, over Taiwan and other social issues, it's better to characterize this as Norway falling into line with the rest of the countries. It wasn't quite a protest from the beginning nor was China bullying one country in particular (although the Noble prize thing clearly struck a strong cord among the elite). One alternative, albeit a more cynical long-term perspective, with greater free trade and economic growth the Chinese middle class will continue to grow and each new young generation will be far better educated. Since external pressure seems unlikely to be effective or to be well incentivized, internal progress seems like the only hope.

imron 9y ago

> Wow, shocking to read of such deep capitulation from a country like Norway China forces every country that it has normalised relations with to adhere to the 'One China' policy. Does your country have a Chinese embassy in it? Guess what, your country adheres to the 'One China' policy too.

semperdark 9y ago
Perhaps, but in many cases recognition that there should be "One China" also comes with the implication that Taiwan's government should be the one ruling the "One China". Did you read the linked article? Norway's statements were absolutely humiliating, most countries absolutely do not go that far.
- imron 9y ago
  > Perhaps, but in many cases recognition that there should be "One China" also comes with the implication that Taiwan's government should be the one ruling the "One China". Correct. All it is, is the acknowledgement that there aren't two countries called China, and if you want to do business with China, then the People's Republic of China is the only China you are allowed to officially recognise. > Did you read the linked article? Yes. Other countries do go that far too.
Geekette 9y ago
Pretty sure other countries' recognition of (which does not necessarily equate to acceptance or support of) China's position on this do not extend to the level of sovereign embarrassment and capitulation outlined in the post.
- imron 9y ago
  Other countries capitulate rather easily also: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/11/dalai-lama-pope-francis_n_6312012.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/11/dalai-lama-pope-fra... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/tibet/9717544/David-Cameron-banned-ministers-from-speaking-to-Dalai-Lama.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/tibet/9717544... http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/08/30/pm-has-no-plans-meet-dalai-lama-china-warns-against-meeting http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/08/30/pm-has-no-plan... And there are many more examples. As China's influence grows, so too will the list of examples. Note: I'm not in support of this, just stating the current reality.
- barkingcat 9y ago
  Pretty sure you are mistaken. All countries that have normalized relations with China have to officially abide by the One China policy. If not, they will pull trade, or go to a state of de facto war with you. This is why Canada does not have a Taiwanese embassy. Instead, there are Taiwanese Trade offices which act unofficially as embassies in everything but name. In all countries with Chinese embassies, this is the case.
- jonnathanson 9y ago
  As barkingcat suggests, pretty much every country on the planet that has normalized diplomatic relations with China formally accepts the One China policy. This is part of China's chess strategy for forcing the world to accept its ownership of Taiwan. I will go out on a limb for a second and suggest that the day will come soon enough when the United States formally bends the knee on this issue as well. We are headed in that direction much faster than anyone anticipated. The 'free world' has chosen to worship the Almighty Dollar as its lord and sovereign. China is where most of your dollars come from now. Ergo, China has the mandate of market-capitalist heaven, and you work for China now.
mikeash 9y ago
It's one thing to officially adhere to "One China" and quite another to shun respected people that China doesn't like. Do other countries do that second one? The US seems to have no problem allowing the Dalai Lama to meet the President, for example.
- imron 9y ago
  > Do other countries do that second one? Unfortunately yes: http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/08/30/pm-has-no-plans-meet-dalai-lama-china-warns-against-meeting http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/08/30/pm-has-no-plan...
- fhood 9y ago
  Well, the US can piss off China with relative impunity. We represent 18 percent of their exports, and their currency is pegged to the dollar. Norway is less influential.
  - imron 9y ago
    Relative, yes, but not total. When the Dalai Lama met with Obama, it was a 'private' visit not an official one and they met in the Map room rather than the Oval Office, which apparently has different diplomatic implications. Even with all its clout, the US still needs to dance around the issue.

fpoling 9y ago

Unfortunately the fish farming industry lobby in Norway is too strong to adhere to those principals when negotiating with China.

zokier 9y ago

I don't get why this is such a big deal or "deep capitulation". Its a statement, seems more like net win for Norway, they got concrete economical benefits by trading in some (empty) words. While the treatment of Dalai Lama was unfortunate, it also happened before this normalization, during a period of appeasement. Now that the relations are bit better again and an agreement has been reached, I would expect (somewhat paradoxically) Norways line against China to harden gradually again.

dmix 9y ago
I doubt Norway alone could make a meaningful impact on China's social and geopolitical policy either. But like any type of protests it always takes one person to stand up to get the ball rolling, hopefully making some persuasive points, for others to join in to create real pressure. Yet China has perfected their anti-western propaganda machine, when it's not censored it's to turned into victimization narratives or other reversals. The only 'real' pressure would be a united front with real economic costs imposed on China. That'd have to start somewhere but the efficacy must be honestly considered vs the very real costs China could impose in return against a single weaker opponent. Considering many other bigger western countries have capitulated to China in similar ways, far quieter, over Taiwan and other social issues, it's better to characterize this as Norway falling into line with the rest of the countries. It wasn't quite a protest from the beginning nor was China bullying one country in particular (although the Noble prize thing clearly struck a strong cord among the elite). One alternative, albeit a more cynical long-term perspective, with greater free trade and economic growth the Chinese middle class will continue to grow and each new young generation will be far better educated. Since external pressure seems unlikely to be effective or to be well incentivized, internal progress seems like the only hope.