5 ms·

Many in Japan Are Outsourcing Themselves

39 points by credo 16y ago

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
jac_no_k 16y ago
One reason operating costs are so high in Japan is that the white collar jobs are only available in the metro areas like Tokyo. Outside of the metro areas, the cost of living is much lower, probably never as cheap as living in Thailand. If the companies would set up these call centers in the outlying areas, they would get access to unique Japanese talent, without leaving the country. I think this kind of talent drain is going to cause problems for an island country whose only real resource is people. I wonder if the government has any real long term planning... /me smack head. Oh that's right, Japan has had 5 different prime ministers in the past 5 years.
- drtse4 16y ago
  I see this as a step in a transition that will likely lead to what you are suggesting, the costs even in the places cited by the article will start to rise and then rural Japan will become a too obvious choice to be ignored. Something similar is starting to happen in IT for India/east europe/etc... , just don't ask me how much time it will take...
- MC27 16y ago
  I tend to think the problem is related to whomever is assigning CEO-style positions to short-term thinkers. The sort of leaders that will bend to the will of shareholders, even if it disables or destroys an organisation in the long-term.
  - donw 16y ago
    The problem is a mix of 'tradition über alles' and a culture that virtually reinforces top-down management. In Japan, you simply Do Not Question the people above you, and those people Do Not Question the culture that's been handed down to them from whoever ran the company last. This is not a culture of innovation.
patio11 16y ago
Great, more jobs for me! (Wait.) Seriously, while this is a bit oversold, you've got to feel for Japanese twenty-somethings. I nearly killed myself with overwork as an intermediate engineer, and my salary would just about pay for a US English major their first year out of school. And I had one of the best jobs in Japan. Japanese twenty-somethings are being promised jobs with similar hours, worse working conditions, more work, no guarantee of lifetime employment (oh ho, there's a biggie), etc etc. Those that can get jobs, anyhow: un- and under- employment are pretty bad here for twenty-somethings. Meanwhile, there is a looming public benefits crisis because the intergenerational transfer is ultimately unsustainable. (True everywhere, but in Japan the demographics are particularly bleak.) Is it any wonder that opting out of The Offer is so popular right now? Work holidays (i.e. go to Australia for a year, work in hospitality/food service/etc) are quite popular in my social circles: after all, if you're going to make restaurant wages regardless of what you do, might as well get a vacation out of it. There are something like half a million Japanese single twenty-somethings with no jobs or decent prospects of getting them, and the traditional solution (marry her off to a salaryman) runs into the problem that a) increasingly it is a "him" and b) there are insufficient unmarried salarymen to go around.
- drtse4 16y ago
  Looks like something that could profoundly change the japanese society if the situation continue to get worse.
  - patio11 16y ago
    I optimistically prefer to read this as "Small-town Japan is the world's best place to do a startup", and not purely for self-justification. The opportunity cost to doing a software startup may actually be negative for twenty-something Japanese engineers who are not salarymen.
    - exit 16y ago
      how much unemployment could startups in rural japan absorb? would their work conditions and salaries be any better than what salarymen experience?
drinian 16y ago
I'm in Bangkok right now, and I can tell you that just about anything available in Tokyo is here as well, for a considerably lower price. Most of the big Japanese food chains are here, even. It's not surprising that there are Japanese companies doing this, then; in fact, I can think of more than a few HN commenters, including me, who have temporarily relocated to Thailand to get work done.
- donw 16y ago
  If you've got Matsuya, I'm on my way! For those who don't know, Matsuya is a chain restaurant that serves a variety of rice dishes, and is amazingly cheap -- you can get a bowl of donburi and a salad for less than 300 yen. They keep costs down by cutting out ordering; you place your order by buying a meal ticket from a vending machine at the front of the store.
  - drinian 16y ago
    I have to say, I haven't seen Matsuya. (I'm also a fan -- had a number of meals in a Matsuya near Asakusa). But you should be able to find donburi pretty easily in any of the big mall food courts. Oddly enough, Yoshinoya doesn't have much of a presence here, either.
  - elai 16y ago
    Just purchase anything from a street vendor for around 100 yen equivalent. Japanese food is 'prestigious' and costs about 300 to 1000 yen for a meal. Traffic is a nightmare in inner Bangkok. Subway, canal boat or sky train only if you value your time. It can be difficult to find computer and camera stuff for newegg.com prices
    - drinian 16y ago
      I live on the Skytrain. My experience, shopping for electronics on my round-the-world trip, is that the US (especially Newegg) is the cheapest place in the world for quality electronics, thanks to a combination of competition, large market, and low sales tax. Note I said quality electronics, not the horrible knockoff stuff you can buy in the developing world.
autarch 16y ago
It seems to me that anyone taking such a job may be embracing permanent exile from Japan. Even though the salary is probably quite good for the new country, it seems unlikely these folks could ever save enough money to go home and start a life there.
fookyong 16y ago
Overblown. Name me a 1st world country where 20-somethings with generic degrees and zero experience don't have a hard time finding a job. Disclosure: I work in Japan and have been here since graduating uni. I started with a low-paid design job, worked hard, changed jobs a bunch of times and now am comfortably in 6-figure land. That 20-somethings have to take shitty salaries should come as absolutely no surprise. You work up from there. That's life.
known 16y ago
Eventually you'll have to face http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1B#Criticisms_of_the_program http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1B#Criticisms_of_the_program

39 points by credo 16y ago

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

One reason operating costs are so high in Japan is that the white collar jobs are only available in the metro areas like Tokyo. Outside of the metro areas, the cost of living is much lower, probably never as cheap as living in Thailand. If the companies would set up these call centers in the outlying areas, they would get access to unique Japanese talent, without leaving the country. I think this kind of talent drain is going to cause problems for an island country whose only real resource is people. I wonder if the government has any real long term planning... /me smack head. Oh that's right, Japan has had 5 different prime ministers in the past 5 years.

drtse4 16y ago
I see this as a step in a transition that will likely lead to what you are suggesting, the costs even in the places cited by the article will start to rise and then rural Japan will become a too obvious choice to be ignored. Something similar is starting to happen in IT for India/east europe/etc... , just don't ask me how much time it will take...
MC27 16y ago
I tend to think the problem is related to whomever is assigning CEO-style positions to short-term thinkers. The sort of leaders that will bend to the will of shareholders, even if it disables or destroys an organisation in the long-term.
- donw 16y ago
  The problem is a mix of 'tradition über alles' and a culture that virtually reinforces top-down management. In Japan, you simply Do Not Question the people above you, and those people Do Not Question the culture that's been handed down to them from whoever ran the company last. This is not a culture of innovation.

patio11 16y ago

Great, more jobs for me! (Wait.) Seriously, while this is a bit oversold, you've got to feel for Japanese twenty-somethings. I nearly killed myself with overwork as an intermediate engineer, and my salary would just about pay for a US English major their first year out of school. And I had one of the best jobs in Japan. Japanese twenty-somethings are being promised jobs with similar hours, worse working conditions, more work, no guarantee of lifetime employment (oh ho, there's a biggie), etc etc. Those that can get jobs, anyhow: un- and under- employment are pretty bad here for twenty-somethings. Meanwhile, there is a looming public benefits crisis because the intergenerational transfer is ultimately unsustainable. (True everywhere, but in Japan the demographics are particularly bleak.) Is it any wonder that opting out of The Offer is so popular right now? Work holidays (i.e. go to Australia for a year, work in hospitality/food service/etc) are quite popular in my social circles: after all, if you're going to make restaurant wages regardless of what you do, might as well get a vacation out of it. There are something like half a million Japanese single twenty-somethings with no jobs or decent prospects of getting them, and the traditional solution (marry her off to a salaryman) runs into the problem that a) increasingly it is a "him" and b) there are insufficient unmarried salarymen to go around.

drtse4 16y ago
Looks like something that could profoundly change the japanese society if the situation continue to get worse.
- patio11 16y ago
  I optimistically prefer to read this as "Small-town Japan is the world's best place to do a startup", and not purely for self-justification. The opportunity cost to doing a software startup may actually be negative for twenty-something Japanese engineers who are not salarymen.
  - exit 16y ago
    how much unemployment could startups in rural japan absorb? would their work conditions and salaries be any better than what salarymen experience?

drinian 16y ago

I'm in Bangkok right now, and I can tell you that just about anything available in Tokyo is here as well, for a considerably lower price. Most of the big Japanese food chains are here, even. It's not surprising that there are Japanese companies doing this, then; in fact, I can think of more than a few HN commenters, including me, who have temporarily relocated to Thailand to get work done.

donw 16y ago
If you've got Matsuya, I'm on my way! For those who don't know, Matsuya is a chain restaurant that serves a variety of rice dishes, and is amazingly cheap -- you can get a bowl of donburi and a salad for less than 300 yen. They keep costs down by cutting out ordering; you place your order by buying a meal ticket from a vending machine at the front of the store.
- drinian 16y ago
  I have to say, I haven't seen Matsuya. (I'm also a fan -- had a number of meals in a Matsuya near Asakusa). But you should be able to find donburi pretty easily in any of the big mall food courts. Oddly enough, Yoshinoya doesn't have much of a presence here, either.
- elai 16y ago
  Just purchase anything from a street vendor for around 100 yen equivalent. Japanese food is 'prestigious' and costs about 300 to 1000 yen for a meal. Traffic is a nightmare in inner Bangkok. Subway, canal boat or sky train only if you value your time. It can be difficult to find computer and camera stuff for newegg.com prices
  - drinian 16y ago
    I live on the Skytrain. My experience, shopping for electronics on my round-the-world trip, is that the US (especially Newegg) is the cheapest place in the world for quality electronics, thanks to a combination of competition, large market, and low sales tax. Note I said quality electronics, not the horrible knockoff stuff you can buy in the developing world.

autarch 16y ago

It seems to me that anyone taking such a job may be embracing permanent exile from Japan. Even though the salary is probably quite good for the new country, it seems unlikely these folks could ever save enough money to go home and start a life there.

fookyong 16y ago

Overblown. Name me a 1st world country where 20-somethings with generic degrees and zero experience don't have a hard time finding a job. Disclosure: I work in Japan and have been here since graduating uni. I started with a low-paid design job, worked hard, changed jobs a bunch of times and now am comfortably in 6-figure land. That 20-somethings have to take shitty salaries should come as absolutely no surprise. You work up from there. That's life.

known 16y ago

Eventually you'll have to face http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1B#Criticisms_of_the_program http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1B#Criticisms_of_the_program