5 ms·

I wonder how many customers they will lose because of this decision? What I don't actually understand is what exactly is gained by its removal? It doesn't seem

I wonder how many customers they will lose because of this decision? What I don't actually understand is what exactly is gained by its removal? It doesn't seem to be a limiting factor in either thinness or waterproofing, which are the only two I can think of. I know I for one will never buy a phone with no headphone jack.

jamesrcole 9y ago
I think (good implementations of) wireless headphones are the way of the future. What did they gain by removing floppy disk drives from laptops? Well, nothing per se, but it allowed them to make smaller laptops. Removing the jack will allow them to make phones thinner - if not now, in future iterations. And the thing with keeping features around is that it's not just a question of that one feature. It's cumulative over time. It's not just a question of removing the floppy drive, it's that AND the internal modem AND the CD drive, etc. The effects can add up.
- mcjiggerlog 9y ago
  I mostly use my headphone jack to connect to stereo systems at home and in the car, so wireless headphones don't really help (nevermind how much more expensive they are and issues with sound).
  - jamesrcole 9y ago
    I understand that's the case now - I did say "the way of the future". I believe wireless will become the standard everywhere (for everyday use, at least). Any transition like that is going to be awkward at first. If people tried to wait for perfect conditions, progress would never be made.
    - dracodoc 9y ago
      Wifi didn't replace Ethernet after many years. Even wifi has become much more reliable, faster and cheaper, Ethernet is always several steps better. Pushing progress is not an excuse to force transition with cost and effort burden on customers.
      - jamesrcole 9y ago
        But does every networked device have ethernet these days? My laptop doesn't, nor does my phone. There are some contexts where Ethernet is more appropriate, but that doesn't mean it's more appropriate everywhere. > Pushing progress is not an excuse to force transition with cost and effort burden on customers. You can't make progress without doing some of that.
        zeveb 9y ago
        > But does every networked device have ethernet these days? My laptop doesn't, nor does my phone. Every stationary or semi-stationary networked device should probably have Ethernet. A desktop or laptop should; a phone shouldn't (because it's mobile). It'd be nice if IoT thermostats and the like were wired, but that would require homes to have Ethernet-over-power or Ethernet runs in the walls or something. WiFi is inferior to Ethernet, except when mobility is necessary. So for mobile devices like phones, it's not needed. For tablets, probably not (but imagine if your charging cable could also carry fast, reliable networking to your tablet, so you could have a better experience while reading or watching TV, but still be able to get up & go).
- mattnewton 9y ago
  When they removed floppy drives it was because there was a better alternative. I don’t agree that Bluetooth is a better alternative than a cord that is 100% reliable to pair, perfect audio quality, and never needs to be charged
  - jamesrcole 9y ago
    > When they removed floppy drives it was because there was a better alternative. When they removed that -- or any of the other things -- there was still some backlash from people who still had uses for them, and still wanted them. > I don’t agree that Bluetooth is a better alternative than a cord that is 100% reliable to pair, perfect audio quality, and never needs to be charged From what I've heard the ear pods are very reliable to pair and have good audio quality.
    - Veratyr 9y ago
      > From what I've heard the ear pods are very reliable to pair and have good audio quality. I think the comparison to removal of floppy drives fails here because neither is clearly superior to the other. Wired headphones are inconvenient (you need a wire) but have great sound quality and reliability. They're also cheap. Wireless headphones are convenient in some aspects (no wires) but inconvenient in others (need to charge them) and have decent quality and somewhat less reliability. They're also expensive. You can't say wireless headphones supersede wired headphones, they just choose different tradeoffs.
      - jamesrcole 9y ago
        > have decent quality and somewhat less reliability I don't believe that is inherently true about wireless headphones. Re: tradeoffs, you can say that about any set of alternatives, and there can still be one option that in the long term is best for most people. Eg horses vs cars as means for personal transport.
        Veratyr 9y ago
- ropans808 9y ago
  They can make the phone thinner, but they are only doing that by putting more hardware (a DAC) into the headphone. It's massively duplicating one component for such a negligible advantage.
  - jamesrcole 9y ago
    I don't think the consumer cares about such duplication (indirectly, they will, if it makes the headphones cost more, though I think that cost will go down over time). An advantage I didn't mention in my original comment is: getting rid of cables. Personally, I hate headphone cables. They seem to always be getting tangled up when the headphones aren't in use (meaning I have to mess around untangling them before using them), and always caught on things while I'm wearing them.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > I don't think the consumer cares about such duplication Aside from cost, more devices that need to be charged creates more overhead.
      - jamesrcole 9y ago
        It's cost vs benefit. Obviously there's differences of opinions on the costs vs benefits, but I'm of the view that the benefits of wireless outweigh the costs of charging the headphones.
- Zak 9y ago
  The floppy disk stopped being good at moving files between computers and making backups because single files of popular types regularly exceeded its capacity at the time it stopped being a standard feature. Modems and CD drives had fallen into disuse in favor of alternatives by the time they started getting left out. The analog headphone jack still does as good a job of connecting headphones, speakers and such in a practical sense as it always did. Perhaps even better since cars have aux in ports most of the time now[0]. It hasn't fallen into disuse either. While bluetooth headphones exist and enjoy some popularity, most people I know own, and regularly use wired headphones. I don't think the analogy holds. The headphone jack is still as useful and popular with consumers as it ever was. [0] Yes, they also usually have bluetooth, but getting a car and a phone to pair, and getting the right phone to be paired at the right time isn't always a good UX.
  - jamesrcole 9y ago
    > The floppy disk stopped being good at moving files between computers and making backups because single files of popular types regularly exceeded its capacity at the time it stopped being a standard feature. Modems and CD drives had fallen into disuse in favor of alternatives by the time they started getting left out. There were still people who had stuff on floppies who wanted floppy drives. There was a big fuss when Apple first removed CD drives from their laptops. > The analog headphone jack still does as good a job of connecting headphones, speakers and such in a practical sense as it always did. Many people -- I'm not claiming it's the majority -- disagree. Many people find headphone cables a big pain in the ass. > While bluetooth headphones exist and enjoy some popularity, most people I know own, and regularly use wired headphones. At least part of that is that wireless headphones tend to be expensive and many of them aren't the best at pairing and staying connected. Those things aren't inherent to wireless technology and will change over time. > Yes, they also usually have bluetooth, but getting a car and a phone to pair, and getting the right phone to be paired at the right time isn't always a good UX. Again, that's nothing inherent to wireless. Apparently the Apple wireless pairing works pretty perfectly.
    - zeveb 9y ago
      > Many people find headphone cables a big pain in the ass. But they don't also find having to charge headphones, and eventually to throw them out and purchase new ones, to be 'a big pain in the ass'? > At least part of that is that wireless headphones tend to be expensive and many of them aren't the best at pairing and staying connected. Those things aren't inherent to wireless technology and will change over time. I'm pretty sure that expense and complexity are inherent to wireless. No wireless connexion is going to be as cheap and reliable as an equivalent wired connexion, if only because the wireless connexion terminates in … a wire.
- BinaryIdiot 9y ago
  > Removing the jack will allow them to make phones thinner - if not now, in future iterations. People keep saying this but the circuitry and the depth was very small. There was even that guy from China who hacked a working 3.5mm jack into the iPhone 7 without changing its shape AT ALL yet Apple cited that they had to remove it to fit in more stuff. If this isn't something that's useful to remove now, they should wait until it IS useful. It's all very frustrating. I now have my non-techie family asking me what to do with their phone that doesn't have a headphone jack or they're asking for support for their bluetooth headphones which MOST of them still completely SUCK (especially for the average user). I mean I ultimately agree with you but I think we're still years away.
- hawski 9y ago
  If the jack removal allows to make thinner phones, then I hope that it will never be removed. What is advantage of thinner phones? They are uncomfortable for hands and have probably smaller battery. They must be also easier to bend.
  - leftistcensor03 9y ago
    Underrated question. How thin do they need to be? Lots of other components need to catch up first
nas 9y ago
Its a dealbreaker for me. Otherwise, I would have considered the phone. I use my headphone jack nearly every day. I have a nice pair of Shure earphones that I use. I have no desire to get some wireless earphones. The headphone jack is small, durable, and ubiquitous. Removing it is idiotic.

jamesrcole 9y ago

I think (good implementations of) wireless headphones are the way of the future. What did they gain by removing floppy disk drives from laptops? Well, nothing per se, but it allowed them to make smaller laptops. Removing the jack will allow them to make phones thinner - if not now, in future iterations. And the thing with keeping features around is that it's not just a question of that one feature. It's cumulative over time. It's not just a question of removing the floppy drive, it's that AND the internal modem AND the CD drive, etc. The effects can add up.

mcjiggerlog 9y ago
I mostly use my headphone jack to connect to stereo systems at home and in the car, so wireless headphones don't really help (nevermind how much more expensive they are and issues with sound).
- jamesrcole 9y ago
  I understand that's the case now - I did say "the way of the future". I believe wireless will become the standard everywhere (for everyday use, at least). Any transition like that is going to be awkward at first. If people tried to wait for perfect conditions, progress would never be made.
  - dracodoc 9y ago
    Wifi didn't replace Ethernet after many years. Even wifi has become much more reliable, faster and cheaper, Ethernet is always several steps better. Pushing progress is not an excuse to force transition with cost and effort burden on customers.
    - jamesrcole 9y ago
      But does every networked device have ethernet these days? My laptop doesn't, nor does my phone. There are some contexts where Ethernet is more appropriate, but that doesn't mean it's more appropriate everywhere. > Pushing progress is not an excuse to force transition with cost and effort burden on customers. You can't make progress without doing some of that.
      - zeveb 9y ago
        > But does every networked device have ethernet these days? My laptop doesn't, nor does my phone. Every stationary or semi-stationary networked device should probably have Ethernet. A desktop or laptop should; a phone shouldn't (because it's mobile). It'd be nice if IoT thermostats and the like were wired, but that would require homes to have Ethernet-over-power or Ethernet runs in the walls or something. WiFi is inferior to Ethernet, except when mobility is necessary. So for mobile devices like phones, it's not needed. For tablets, probably not (but imagine if your charging cable could also carry fast, reliable networking to your tablet, so you could have a better experience while reading or watching TV, but still be able to get up & go).
mattnewton 9y ago
When they removed floppy drives it was because there was a better alternative. I don’t agree that Bluetooth is a better alternative than a cord that is 100% reliable to pair, perfect audio quality, and never needs to be charged
- jamesrcole 9y ago
  > When they removed floppy drives it was because there was a better alternative. When they removed that -- or any of the other things -- there was still some backlash from people who still had uses for them, and still wanted them. > I don’t agree that Bluetooth is a better alternative than a cord that is 100% reliable to pair, perfect audio quality, and never needs to be charged From what I've heard the ear pods are very reliable to pair and have good audio quality.
  - Veratyr 9y ago
    > From what I've heard the ear pods are very reliable to pair and have good audio quality. I think the comparison to removal of floppy drives fails here because neither is clearly superior to the other. Wired headphones are inconvenient (you need a wire) but have great sound quality and reliability. They're also cheap. Wireless headphones are convenient in some aspects (no wires) but inconvenient in others (need to charge them) and have decent quality and somewhat less reliability. They're also expensive. You can't say wireless headphones supersede wired headphones, they just choose different tradeoffs.
    - jamesrcole 9y ago
      > have decent quality and somewhat less reliability I don't believe that is inherently true about wireless headphones. Re: tradeoffs, you can say that about any set of alternatives, and there can still be one option that in the long term is best for most people. Eg horses vs cars as means for personal transport.
      - Veratyr 9y ago
ropans808 9y ago
They can make the phone thinner, but they are only doing that by putting more hardware (a DAC) into the headphone. It's massively duplicating one component for such a negligible advantage.
- jamesrcole 9y ago
  I don't think the consumer cares about such duplication (indirectly, they will, if it makes the headphones cost more, though I think that cost will go down over time). An advantage I didn't mention in my original comment is: getting rid of cables. Personally, I hate headphone cables. They seem to always be getting tangled up when the headphones aren't in use (meaning I have to mess around untangling them before using them), and always caught on things while I'm wearing them.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > I don't think the consumer cares about such duplication Aside from cost, more devices that need to be charged creates more overhead.
    - jamesrcole 9y ago
      It's cost vs benefit. Obviously there's differences of opinions on the costs vs benefits, but I'm of the view that the benefits of wireless outweigh the costs of charging the headphones.
Zak 9y ago
The floppy disk stopped being good at moving files between computers and making backups because single files of popular types regularly exceeded its capacity at the time it stopped being a standard feature. Modems and CD drives had fallen into disuse in favor of alternatives by the time they started getting left out. The analog headphone jack still does as good a job of connecting headphones, speakers and such in a practical sense as it always did. Perhaps even better since cars have aux in ports most of the time now[0]. It hasn't fallen into disuse either. While bluetooth headphones exist and enjoy some popularity, most people I know own, and regularly use wired headphones. I don't think the analogy holds. The headphone jack is still as useful and popular with consumers as it ever was. [0] Yes, they also usually have bluetooth, but getting a car and a phone to pair, and getting the right phone to be paired at the right time isn't always a good UX.
- jamesrcole 9y ago
  > The floppy disk stopped being good at moving files between computers and making backups because single files of popular types regularly exceeded its capacity at the time it stopped being a standard feature. Modems and CD drives had fallen into disuse in favor of alternatives by the time they started getting left out. There were still people who had stuff on floppies who wanted floppy drives. There was a big fuss when Apple first removed CD drives from their laptops. > The analog headphone jack still does as good a job of connecting headphones, speakers and such in a practical sense as it always did. Many people -- I'm not claiming it's the majority -- disagree. Many people find headphone cables a big pain in the ass. > While bluetooth headphones exist and enjoy some popularity, most people I know own, and regularly use wired headphones. At least part of that is that wireless headphones tend to be expensive and many of them aren't the best at pairing and staying connected. Those things aren't inherent to wireless technology and will change over time. > Yes, they also usually have bluetooth, but getting a car and a phone to pair, and getting the right phone to be paired at the right time isn't always a good UX. Again, that's nothing inherent to wireless. Apparently the Apple wireless pairing works pretty perfectly.
  - zeveb 9y ago
    > Many people find headphone cables a big pain in the ass. But they don't also find having to charge headphones, and eventually to throw them out and purchase new ones, to be 'a big pain in the ass'? > At least part of that is that wireless headphones tend to be expensive and many of them aren't the best at pairing and staying connected. Those things aren't inherent to wireless technology and will change over time. I'm pretty sure that expense and complexity are inherent to wireless. No wireless connexion is going to be as cheap and reliable as an equivalent wired connexion, if only because the wireless connexion terminates in … a wire.
BinaryIdiot 9y ago
> Removing the jack will allow them to make phones thinner - if not now, in future iterations. People keep saying this but the circuitry and the depth was very small. There was even that guy from China who hacked a working 3.5mm jack into the iPhone 7 without changing its shape AT ALL yet Apple cited that they had to remove it to fit in more stuff. If this isn't something that's useful to remove now, they should wait until it IS useful. It's all very frustrating. I now have my non-techie family asking me what to do with their phone that doesn't have a headphone jack or they're asking for support for their bluetooth headphones which MOST of them still completely SUCK (especially for the average user). I mean I ultimately agree with you but I think we're still years away.
hawski 9y ago
If the jack removal allows to make thinner phones, then I hope that it will never be removed. What is advantage of thinner phones? They are uncomfortable for hands and have probably smaller battery. They must be also easier to bend.
- leftistcensor03 9y ago
  Underrated question. How thin do they need to be? Lots of other components need to catch up first

nas 9y ago

Its a dealbreaker for me. Otherwise, I would have considered the phone. I use my headphone jack nearly every day. I have a nice pair of Shure earphones that I use. I have no desire to get some wireless earphones. The headphone jack is small, durable, and ubiquitous. Removing it is idiotic.