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It's an interesting article for me because right now I'm trying to learn Chinese. I'm mostly interested in learning to speak the language, but I've discovered t

It's an interesting article for me because right now I'm trying to learn Chinese. I'm mostly interested in learning to speak the language, but I've discovered that it really helps to be able to read as well. Chinese has a very small palette of sounds, which means that there's a lot of ambiguity. The same sound and tone could be represented by many different characters and have many different meanings. But there's no way I can do the traditional approach of writing out each character hundreds and hundreds of times. I don't have the time or temperament. So I'm hoping a combination of flashcards and watching TV (most Chinese programs seem to have Chinese script subtitles, I assume to serve the various dialects that share the writing system) will do the trick. That's one issue the article didn't fully address: the importance of that muscle memory in learning and retaining the characters.

Jd 16y ago
Muscle memory was entirely neglected and is, in many aspects, the most important "memory" for writing Chinese characters, esp. under time pressure. The way that characters can be reconstructed that are "forgotten" by your Chinese speaker is simply that they go back to their visually retained memory of what the character looks like and then render it piece by piece. I've seen this happen to a Chinese lawyer friend of mine who was Peking University grad -> Harvard JD (not a dumb cookie), but after time in an English speaking law firm tripped up when asked to write even simple phrases that I, a foreigner, could still write fairly easily. As for your problems learning the language, there is no other way other than rot memorization, and if you don't have the time, you shouldn't even bother. Seriously. If you can make the time but don't have the temperament, go somewhere where they will beat it into you Chinese-style, because there really is no other way to memorize the thousands of characters necessary to be proficient in Chinese. If you become serious and are looking for recommendations ping me and I will give you some.
- ramchip 16y ago
  I'm not so sure about the Chinese-style beating. At least use a structured approach; Chinese characters aren't random strokes, they have rules and history, and learning it can help your memory a lot (especially if you're like me - I just can't memorize something I don't "understand"). The Japanese version of this book is quite well-known and I found it helpful: http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Traditional-Hanzi-Meaning-Characters/dp/0824833244 http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Traditional-Hanzi-Meaning-... (this is the trad. Chinese version)
  - Jd 16y ago
    I mean beating figuratively. Spending a lot of time each day doing something that might be perceived as uninteresting and menial is largely a matter of personal discipline, but this discipline can be imposed (or amplified) by the environment you are in.
    - ramchip 16y ago
      > I mean beating figuratively Haha, don't worry, I know this. I've seen people beat themselves into doing what I consider an extremely boring way of studying, telling themselves "there's no other way". My point is that using a method that stimulates your imagination, or links the character to words, or explains how it got its shape, helps a lot to make things interesting and meaningful compared to studying it "in the vacuum". Discipline and time are always required, but some methods make it less painful. My impression is that most people don't spend enough time to plan their studies. They take a class, get told "you must know these 50 characters for next week", and then just learn them with almost no context, pure raw memorization. After trying this, many people think they "don't have the temperament", like you said. My point is, sometimes it is, but more often than not I'd put it on bad methodology. It's possible to make it more interesting and learn them without a flogging ;)
      - Jd 16y ago
        IMO it is both/and not either/or. Flogging + making things as interesting as possible. As I suggested on the other branch, I highly recommend calligraphy as, in my experience, appreciating the beauty of the characters helps with retention. Unfortunately getting good at calligraphy also takes time and effort...
- pradocchia 16y ago
  If you can make the time but don't have the temperament, go somewhere where they will beat it into you Chinese-style, because there really is no other way to memorize the thousands of characters necessary to be proficient in Chinese. Please, some practical advice: Learn your stokes and always follow stroke order. Each stroke has a rhythm, and each character has a composite rhythm. Rhythm is an excellent mnemonic device. An hour a day, everyday, is enough to make good progress. Half an hour twice a day is better. Your nervous system forms pathways between sessions, not during, so you want to optimize for that, not the session itself. Throw out the flash cards, and throw out the books of pseudo-etymology. Find a book of pen calligraphy, and focus on strokes, positioning, balance. Here's one place to start: http://www.amazon.com/Learn-Write-Chinese-Characters-Language/dp/0300057717 http://www.amazon.com/Learn-Write-Chinese-Characters-Languag... And once you're further along: http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Cursive-Script-Introduction-Publications/dp/0887100333/ http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Cursive-Script-Introduction-Pu...
  - Jd 16y ago
    Since we are talking about practical advice, I strongly recommend calligraphy lessons which allow one to connect to the beauty of the traditional characters as opposed to simply their simplified versions, which will presumably help with retention in the long run.
  - GiraffeNecktie 16y ago
    I'm sure practising the writing is a very effective way to learn, but I'm more than a little skeptical when people tell me there's 'only one way to learn'. I've been at it for two years now. I'm not moving very fast but I've learned about 1,700 words so far and reasonably pleased with my ability to communicate. This is all from self study with flashcards and audio (ChinesePod, Assimil etc) plus a weekly hour and a half with a tutor. Whether I can retain the characters over the long term is another question, especially since my interest is really in speaking and not reading and writing, but so far the flashcards and tv are working well for me.
trevelyan 16y ago
Since we are talking about Chinese learning, I will be shameless and pitch my own startup: Popup Chinese (http://popupchinese.com http://popupchinese.com). We are based in Beijing and are the learning site recommended most heavily by pretty much everyone who speaks Chinese fluently, including top-tier academic immersion programs in Beijing like the CET and IUP programs (Harvard, Stanford, etc.). We focus mostly on producing audio and text materials, but somewhat relevant for this discussion is our interactive iPhone software that teaches how to write Chinese characters (http://itunes.apple.com/app/chinese-writer/id374152537?mt=8 http://itunes.apple.com/app/chinese-writer/id374152537?mt=8). It helps people solve this problem and has the extra merit of being totally free. Not intended as a sales pitch since most of our materials are actually free. But if you haven't dropped by you really should. I think you'll find our stuff will push you to genuine fluency a lot faster than Chinese television and flashcards. Especially if you are an elementary or intermediate-level learner and have already advanced to the stage where most Chinese textbooks are suffocatingly underwhelming.
- Jd 16y ago
  No need to deny the sales pitch aspect so long as you have a product. What exactly is recommended by the CET/IUP folks (I know both FYI) ? Everything? There were a bunch of sites like yours awhile ago, although I'm not sure how many have survived or become profitable.
  - trevelyan 16y ago
    If you know the academic directors at these programs you know the same people we do. They say they recommend us to their students and we believe them. Feel free to contact me by email if you'd like more specifics. My impression is that most of the players in our industry are VC-funded and losing money. Their economics are quite different from ours though. Since it sounds like you're a fellow speaker, I'd suggest checking out our Intermediate and Advanced lessons, along with our selection of manually annotated short stories. If you're accustomed to standard mandarin as actually spoken (with the neutral tone, proper erhua-ization, etc.), or are good enough to try your hand at Dream of the Red Chamber or Journey to the West, I think you'll see and hear the difference right away.
vorg 16y ago
The disconnect between being able to read Chinese and write Chinese can be huge for a foreign learner. We're always reading Chinese when we walk the street, look at the menus, and watch local TV (most Chinese TV has Chinese subtitles). When typing Chinese using the pinyin input method, we use our Chinese reading skills, not writing skills, to select the correct character from the popup box. We virtually never practise writing skills, consequently I can read over 2000 characters, but only write 100 or 200.
- Jd 16y ago
  Who is "we" ?
  - vorg 16y ago
    Whoops, sorry. Although I'm a native English speaker, in my dialect of informal spoken English (New Zealand English), people sometimes say "we" to mean "I". I try to avoid this ingrained habit when out of town or on the internet, but sometimes slip back into it.
    - Jd 16y ago
      Gotcha

Jd 16y ago

Muscle memory was entirely neglected and is, in many aspects, the most important "memory" for writing Chinese characters, esp. under time pressure. The way that characters can be reconstructed that are "forgotten" by your Chinese speaker is simply that they go back to their visually retained memory of what the character looks like and then render it piece by piece. I've seen this happen to a Chinese lawyer friend of mine who was Peking University grad -> Harvard JD (not a dumb cookie), but after time in an English speaking law firm tripped up when asked to write even simple phrases that I, a foreigner, could still write fairly easily. As for your problems learning the language, there is no other way other than rot memorization, and if you don't have the time, you shouldn't even bother. Seriously. If you can make the time but don't have the temperament, go somewhere where they will beat it into you Chinese-style, because there really is no other way to memorize the thousands of characters necessary to be proficient in Chinese. If you become serious and are looking for recommendations ping me and I will give you some.

ramchip 16y ago
I'm not so sure about the Chinese-style beating. At least use a structured approach; Chinese characters aren't random strokes, they have rules and history, and learning it can help your memory a lot (especially if you're like me - I just can't memorize something I don't "understand"). The Japanese version of this book is quite well-known and I found it helpful: http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Traditional-Hanzi-Meaning-Characters/dp/0824833244 http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Traditional-Hanzi-Meaning-... (this is the trad. Chinese version)
- Jd 16y ago
  I mean beating figuratively. Spending a lot of time each day doing something that might be perceived as uninteresting and menial is largely a matter of personal discipline, but this discipline can be imposed (or amplified) by the environment you are in.
  - ramchip 16y ago
    > I mean beating figuratively Haha, don't worry, I know this. I've seen people beat themselves into doing what I consider an extremely boring way of studying, telling themselves "there's no other way". My point is that using a method that stimulates your imagination, or links the character to words, or explains how it got its shape, helps a lot to make things interesting and meaningful compared to studying it "in the vacuum". Discipline and time are always required, but some methods make it less painful. My impression is that most people don't spend enough time to plan their studies. They take a class, get told "you must know these 50 characters for next week", and then just learn them with almost no context, pure raw memorization. After trying this, many people think they "don't have the temperament", like you said. My point is, sometimes it is, but more often than not I'd put it on bad methodology. It's possible to make it more interesting and learn them without a flogging ;)
    - Jd 16y ago
      IMO it is both/and not either/or. Flogging + making things as interesting as possible. As I suggested on the other branch, I highly recommend calligraphy as, in my experience, appreciating the beauty of the characters helps with retention. Unfortunately getting good at calligraphy also takes time and effort...
pradocchia 16y ago
If you can make the time but don't have the temperament, go somewhere where they will beat it into you Chinese-style, because there really is no other way to memorize the thousands of characters necessary to be proficient in Chinese. Please, some practical advice: Learn your stokes and always follow stroke order. Each stroke has a rhythm, and each character has a composite rhythm. Rhythm is an excellent mnemonic device. An hour a day, everyday, is enough to make good progress. Half an hour twice a day is better. Your nervous system forms pathways between sessions, not during, so you want to optimize for that, not the session itself. Throw out the flash cards, and throw out the books of pseudo-etymology. Find a book of pen calligraphy, and focus on strokes, positioning, balance. Here's one place to start: http://www.amazon.com/Learn-Write-Chinese-Characters-Language/dp/0300057717 http://www.amazon.com/Learn-Write-Chinese-Characters-Languag... And once you're further along: http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Cursive-Script-Introduction-Publications/dp/0887100333/ http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Cursive-Script-Introduction-Pu...
- Jd 16y ago
  Since we are talking about practical advice, I strongly recommend calligraphy lessons which allow one to connect to the beauty of the traditional characters as opposed to simply their simplified versions, which will presumably help with retention in the long run.
- GiraffeNecktie 16y ago
  I'm sure practising the writing is a very effective way to learn, but I'm more than a little skeptical when people tell me there's 'only one way to learn'. I've been at it for two years now. I'm not moving very fast but I've learned about 1,700 words so far and reasonably pleased with my ability to communicate. This is all from self study with flashcards and audio (ChinesePod, Assimil etc) plus a weekly hour and a half with a tutor. Whether I can retain the characters over the long term is another question, especially since my interest is really in speaking and not reading and writing, but so far the flashcards and tv are working well for me.

trevelyan 16y ago

Since we are talking about Chinese learning, I will be shameless and pitch my own startup: Popup Chinese (http://popupchinese.com http://popupchinese.com). We are based in Beijing and are the learning site recommended most heavily by pretty much everyone who speaks Chinese fluently, including top-tier academic immersion programs in Beijing like the CET and IUP programs (Harvard, Stanford, etc.). We focus mostly on producing audio and text materials, but somewhat relevant for this discussion is our interactive iPhone software that teaches how to write Chinese characters (http://itunes.apple.com/app/chinese-writer/id374152537?mt=8 http://itunes.apple.com/app/chinese-writer/id374152537?mt=8). It helps people solve this problem and has the extra merit of being totally free. Not intended as a sales pitch since most of our materials are actually free. But if you haven't dropped by you really should. I think you'll find our stuff will push you to genuine fluency a lot faster than Chinese television and flashcards. Especially if you are an elementary or intermediate-level learner and have already advanced to the stage where most Chinese textbooks are suffocatingly underwhelming.

Jd 16y ago
No need to deny the sales pitch aspect so long as you have a product. What exactly is recommended by the CET/IUP folks (I know both FYI) ? Everything? There were a bunch of sites like yours awhile ago, although I'm not sure how many have survived or become profitable.
- trevelyan 16y ago
  If you know the academic directors at these programs you know the same people we do. They say they recommend us to their students and we believe them. Feel free to contact me by email if you'd like more specifics. My impression is that most of the players in our industry are VC-funded and losing money. Their economics are quite different from ours though. Since it sounds like you're a fellow speaker, I'd suggest checking out our Intermediate and Advanced lessons, along with our selection of manually annotated short stories. If you're accustomed to standard mandarin as actually spoken (with the neutral tone, proper erhua-ization, etc.), or are good enough to try your hand at Dream of the Red Chamber or Journey to the West, I think you'll see and hear the difference right away.

vorg 16y ago

The disconnect between being able to read Chinese and write Chinese can be huge for a foreign learner. We're always reading Chinese when we walk the street, look at the menus, and watch local TV (most Chinese TV has Chinese subtitles). When typing Chinese using the pinyin input method, we use our Chinese reading skills, not writing skills, to select the correct character from the popup box. We virtually never practise writing skills, consequently I can read over 2000 characters, but only write 100 or 200.

Jd 16y ago
Who is "we" ?
- vorg 16y ago
  Whoops, sorry. Although I'm a native English speaker, in my dialect of informal spoken English (New Zealand English), people sometimes say "we" to mean "I". I try to avoid this ingrained habit when out of town or on the internet, but sometimes slip back into it.
  - Jd 16y ago
    Gotcha