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Out of curiosity, are these organizations literally fighting poachers? I.e. we're saying that an elephant's life is more valuable than a human's? That's an int
by sillysaurus3 9y ago
Out of curiosity, are these organizations literally fighting poachers? I.e. we're saying that an elephant's life is more valuable than a human's?
That's an interesting moral question.
- weberc2 9y agoEh, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
- adamnemecek 9y agoYes, they are. The countries that have a shoot on sight policy for poachers tend to have very low poaching rates. > That's an interesting moral question. It's not actually. The poaching groups are connected to the likes of Boko Haram http://www.nationalgeographic.com/tracking-ivory/article.html http://www.nationalgeographic.com/tracking-ivory/article.htm.... So it's two birds with one stone really. Also the poachers kill anti-poachers regularly https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/apr/25/two-wildlife-rangers-killed-democratic-republic-congo-elephants https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/apr/25/two-wild... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/aug/17/leading-elephant-conservationist-ivory-shot-dead-in-tanzania https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/aug/17/leading-...
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- solipsism 9y agoIs it so interesting? I'm sure they would apprehend poachers without violence if they had any reason to believe the poachers wouldn't fight for their freedom. It's a bit like asking whether a human life is more valuable than a sack of money when a bank robber goes down shooting. Either law enforcement has teeth or there are no laws.
- thinkloop 9y agoHarmers are less valuable than victims, regardless of species. All consciousness should be respected.
- soVeryTired 9y agoDepends why they're causing harm. Nothing is ever black and white.
- munificent 9y ago> Nothing is ever black and white. This is true, but I feel like people claiming this often intend to imply that everything is exactly 50% gray which is also never the case.
- aaron695 9y agoSo kill all leopards, lions, tigers, wolves etc. It's a valid point, I do agree it's worth thinking about, I've heard of the movement before. But it means you are very pro poacher though. Every animal they kill often saves hundreds. Interesting outlook.
- redler 9y agoA few years ago I was on a trip in Tanzania, visiting Ngorongoro Crater. At one point, high up on the crater rim, the guide pulled the Land Rover to the side of the road to give a ride to a couple of uniformed "park rangers". They were dealing with "reports of poachers", and each was carrying an AK-47. It was unclear whether actual shooting was part of their remit; they were not talkative.
- Xylakant 9y agoWhile in the Kruger National Park, our driver was speeding and caught by a pair of rangers. One approached the car to collect the fine (cash only), the other had an assault rifle at the ready.
- peterwwillis 9y agoThat's not the question at all. The question is whether we should let humans hunt species to extinction. -- https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/fight-against-elephant-poaching-going-commando-180959071/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/fight-against-... "Between 2010 and 2012, ivory hunters shot down an astonishing 100,000 elephants across Africa—more than 60 percent of central Africa’s elephant population has been lost during the ten-year period beginning in 2002—according to the U.S. National Academy of Sciences." http://www.bagheera.com/inthewild/van_anim_elephant.htm http://www.bagheera.com/inthewild/van_anim_elephant.htm "Demand for ivory, combined with habitat loss from human settlement, has led to a dramatic decline in elephant populations in the last few decades. In 1930, there were between 5 and 10 million African elephants. By 1979, there were 1.3 million. In 1989, when they were added to the international list of the most endangered species, there were about 600,000 remaining, less than one percent of their original number. Asian elephants were never as abundant as their African cousins, and today they are even more endangered than African elephants. At the turn of the century, there were an estimated 200,000 Asian elephants. Today there are probably no more than 35,000 to 40,000 left in the wild." -- So, we ask the question: Why save endangered species? http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150715-why-save-an-endangered-species http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150715-why-save-an-endanger... 1) We like them, 2) The biosphere provides trillions of dollars to the global economy, 3) Loss of species impacts ecological systems and puts us at risk as we depend on them for survival.
- Caveman_Coder 9y ago> "...The question is whether we should let humans hunt species to extinction." Why is this the question? Why is "extinction" so important? The fate of most species is extinction anyway.
- peterwwillis 9y agoI added an answer to this at the bottom of my comment.
- Caveman_Coder 9y ago
- bactrian 9y agoThe question is whether it's okay to shoot first at a gang of heavily armed criminals, or whether you have to attempt an arrest first.
- jimrandomh 9y agoYes, you have to attempt an arrest first. Poaching is not a capital crime.
- bactrian 9y agoBank robbery is not a capital crime either but cops shoot as soon as they see an armed gang. Isn't this a good comparison?
- KGIII 9y agoI think Kenya is one place where poaching is a capital crime. They issued a shoot to kill order some years ago. It made the news and I'm not sure of the efficacy of such programs. Importantly, this isn't poaching. This was lawful collection of elephants. Morality aside, this does provide funding for cash- strapped nations and some of that funding goes to protection of stressed animal populations.
- adamnemecek 9y ago> Morality aside Yeah let's not do that.
- KGIII 9y agoI'm not comfortable attempting to force my morality on other people and other cultures, and I think it detracts from our ability to be objective. I personally dislike zoos and don't visit them. At the same time, I'm not comfortable telling you how you should feel.
- wired8 9y agoElephant's don't go around shooting humans....
- antouank 9y agoFrom those specific "humans"? Definitely yes. Humans like those, who harm other creatures just to make profit, deserve to die.
- centimeter 9y agoIs an elephant’s life more valuable than a randomly selected human? Probably not. Is an elephant’s life worth more than someone who poaches endangered animals? Probably. Also, these poachers are usually armed and willing to kill for their poach. The best defense against an idiot with a WWII export AK variant is a smarter person with a much longer-range weapon.
- __alexander 9y ago> Is an elephant’s life more valuable than a randomly selected human? Probably not. According to The Law of Scarcity isn't the life of an elephant more valuable than a human?
- centimeter 9y agoNo? Scarcity alone isn’t enough to make something valuable.
- KGIII 9y agoThe article indicates these elephants were taken legally. So, in this case, I'm pretty sure we aren't actually discussing poachers.
- a2tech 9y agoI'll outright say it-an endangered animal's life is more valuable then a randomly selected human's. You could kill 10 or 100 humans for each of an endangered species and make no (net) difference in the ability of the human race to survive.
- SCHiM 9y agoAs if that's the only consideration. The survival of the race? Turn that around you can justify just about anything, like killing <human group here> because you believe it's better for 'survival'. I think the moral takeaway is not that the lives of these people is worth less than that of an animal. It's that they are breaking knowingly and are often murderers themselves.
- jimrandomh 9y agoSo if you could choose between saving the lives of five elephants, or preventing the Las Vegas shooting, you'd choose the elephants? That seems to be what you're saying.
- KGIII 9y agoI don't know if that's what they are saying, but I would say that. Tragic though the Vegas shooting was, humans aren't an endangered species. Don't get me wrong, I happily hunt and fish. I clean and process dead animals with great frequency. The difference, in this case, is that elephants are truly at risk of extinction.
- pdeuchler 9y agoDo the same rules not apply in almost all countries when someone commits armed robbery of priceless artifacts with military grade weapons?