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WordPress Theme Thesis Maker Backs Down, Adopts GPL

48 points by jolie 16y ago

rick888 16y ago
I love this quote: "Even if Thesis hadn’t copy and pasted large swathes of code from WordPress (and GPL plugins) its PHP would still need to be under the GPL, Mullenweg wrote on his blog. He also began encouraging Thesis users to abandon the theme and seek GPL alternatives." Thesis was caught red-handed with GPL code. However, it still bothers me that the guys over at Wordpress would have still considered it a "derivative work" if it only had function calls to WP. Even before they found the code, Mullenweg was saying it was under the GPL, which is wrong.
- ekiru 16y ago
  > Even before they found the code, Mullenweg was saying it was under the GPL, which is wrong. Which you _believe_ is wrong. Which Mullenweg and the FSF believe is right. Which is the reason the LGPL exists. Just because you believe it to be the case that users of libraries are not derivatives of those libraries does not make it true. Nor does the belief of the FSF and others that it does make that true.
  - rick888 16y ago
    "Which Mullenweg and the FSF believe is right. Which is the reason the LGPL exists. Just because you believe it to be the case that users of libraries are not derivatives of those libraries does not make it true. Nor does the belief of the FSF and others that it does make that true." If this were the truth, anything compiled using the GNU compiler would be also under the GNU (since you would be compiling libraries from this compiler straight into your application/binary and calling function names). It really boils down to the definition of a "derivative work". As an example: A Paypal plugin for Wordpress should not fall under this, yet the developers for Wordpress think it does. The entire situation with Thesis will only hurt Wordpress in the future. As a developer, why would I want to create any Wordpress plugins or themes if someone else is going to lay claim to my work (which really is my work. If the guy from thesis was actually re-distributing Wordpress along with his theme, it would be a different story)? It's scary to think that the people that have talked about Freedom for so long are getting just as restrictive and bad as the RIAA/MPAA.
    - LogicHoleFlaw 16y ago
      anything compiled using the GNU compiler would be also under the GNU (since you would be compiling libraries from this compiler straight into your application/binary and calling function names There is an explicit exception in the GCC licensing to allow compiled programs incorporating GCC runtime code to be distributed under any license the author wishes. You can read more about this topic at http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gcc-exception-faq.html http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gcc-exception-faq.html The compiled program is in fact a derivative work of the incorporated libraries and it is only this explicit exception which allows for the greater work to be redistributed under another license.
      - 0bfusct3 16y ago
        Then taking it all the way down to the hardware, every user of x86 should be required to agree to a license agreement to use an x86 processor since it 'interprets' opcodes on-the-fly thus everything that uses x86 is under an intel license QED. I don't know the full details of the thesis theme but use an API doesn't constitute violation of the GPL v2 - see: tivo and thousands of routers, wireless cards, etc.
        quadhome 16y ago
        The are multiple licenses for the x86 ISA. And companies that produce common chipsets specifically allow open development on top of them. They make more money that way. This wasn't always the case, though. It's easy to forget history.
        0bfusct3 16y ago
        My example may have been flawed (it was meant for exaggeration ) but the point still remains that API use is fine under GPL v2.
        chopsueyar 16y ago
        I assume you have successfully litigated this position in a US court on multiple occasions?
  - drewcrawford 16y ago
    > Just because you believe it to be the case that users of libraries are not derivatives of those libraries does not make it true. Just because you believe a set of machine instructions to be a library does not make it true. The real problem is, we are now trying to legally define something that's really only a convenient mental abstraction for dividing up "things a processor does" into bins. Where does one package begin and another one end? Your processor doesn't know. It's a fiction. Often, a very useful fiction. But then we get edge cases and the analogy breaks down. Thesis complied in the most technical sense (no CSS, JS, or images) so I'm not sure how this accomplished anything in the name of "software freedom."
  - credo 16y ago
    In this case, it does seem like Pearson violated the GPL license. It is probably worth noting that Google didn't use the GPL license for Android. I'm assuming that Google chose to go with the Apache License for Android because they thought that the GPL license would inhibit some commercial development (e.g. a handset-maker who doesn't like GPL) from building on top of the platform.
  - rick888 16y ago
    "Which Mullenweg and the FSF believe is right. Which is the reason the LGPL exists." Would you consider a Nintendo cartridge a derivative work of the Actual System? It obviously uses components of the actual system. This court case: http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=10867856245078964488&q=galoob+nintendo&hl=en&as_sdt=2002 http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1086785624507896... Galoob VS Nintendo This was about the game genie. Here is what the court concluded: "The Game Genie is useless by itself, it can only enhance, and cannot duplicate or recaste, [sic] a Nintendo game’s output. It does not contain or produce a Nintendo game’s output in some concrete or permanent form, nor does it supplant demand for Nintendo game cartridges. Such innovations rarely will constitute infringing derivative works under the Copyright Act." So, if the theme doesn't use actual Wordpress code (IE: beyond function calls) or "supplant demand" for Wordpress itself, it's not a derivative work.
  - slantyyz 16y ago
    That's exactly the reason why I would have loved to have seen this go to a court decision.
drewcrawford 16y ago
Off-topic: What does Thesis actually do? Most Wordpress "Themes" I've seen actually make your blog look a certain way. Thesis seems to be focused on giving you the tools to do... something to do with how your blog looks, but I can't figure out exactly what. And none of the blogs in the showcase look anything like each other. Is this intended to replace freelance WP theme designers? Or is it intended to be something that they somehow use in their designs? It doesn't help that all the video tutorials are behind a paywall... http://diythemes.com/thesis/generate-affiliate-links/ http://diythemes.com/thesis/generate-affiliate-links/ So maybe I am just not in the target market for whatever this thing is, but I cannot understand why I would want it.
- callmeed 16y ago
  I believe it's considered a "theme framework" ... I think it adds panels/setting to the WP admin, allowing you to adjust column widths and other aspects of the blog.
  - noodle 16y ago
    so, its a theme plus a plugin? does this instantly kill the entire premium theme/plugin market?
    - zacharyz 16y ago
      Not at all. The rest of the premium theme and plugin market already works under/with the GPL.
      - noodle 16y ago
        fair enough. thanks for the info.
- oscardelben 16y ago
  It gives you an area in your admin panel where you can custom functions, change the colors, text settings and layout. It also gives you the ability to customize the css. You still need to hire a designer if you want to differentiate it from other people, unless you're happy with the default.
photomatt 16y ago
Whew, glad that one is done.
- westi 16y ago
  Indeed we can focus more on the code again now :-)
HyprMusic 16y ago
“Even if Thesis hadn’t copy and pasted large swathes of code from WordPress (and GPL plugins) its PHP (PHP) would still need to be under the GPL,” Is this really true? I never thought a theme interfacing with other software using public APIs is a derivative. Is it just the GPL that sees it this way or is it the actual copyright laws too?
- kj12345 16y ago
  Yeah I don't understand this either. Is there any way to sell a closed-source piece of software which integrates with Wordpress? What's the difference from software like www.copilot.com which uses GPL software (TightVNC) at its core?
tjogin 16y ago
Can somebody provide me with the GPL'ed parts of Thesis? Shouldn't be a problem, right?
Supermighty 16y ago
It’s not a complete win for FOSS, but at least it’s fair, compliant and fork-able. It's a complete win for FOSS. The GPL is intended to preserve the rights and openness of the original software, not to force people into releasing their own original creations.
- Supermighty 16y ago
  There is a difference between libre and gratis after all.

48 points by jolie 16y ago

I love this quote: "Even if Thesis hadn’t copy and pasted large swathes of code from WordPress (and GPL plugins) its PHP would still need to be under the GPL, Mullenweg wrote on his blog. He also began encouraging Thesis users to abandon the theme and seek GPL alternatives." Thesis was caught red-handed with GPL code. However, it still bothers me that the guys over at Wordpress would have still considered it a "derivative work" if it only had function calls to WP. Even before they found the code, Mullenweg was saying it was under the GPL, which is wrong.

ekiru 16y ago
> Even before they found the code, Mullenweg was saying it was under the GPL, which is wrong. Which you _believe_ is wrong. Which Mullenweg and the FSF believe is right. Which is the reason the LGPL exists. Just because you believe it to be the case that users of libraries are not derivatives of those libraries does not make it true. Nor does the belief of the FSF and others that it does make that true.
- rick888 16y ago
  "Which Mullenweg and the FSF believe is right. Which is the reason the LGPL exists. Just because you believe it to be the case that users of libraries are not derivatives of those libraries does not make it true. Nor does the belief of the FSF and others that it does make that true." If this were the truth, anything compiled using the GNU compiler would be also under the GNU (since you would be compiling libraries from this compiler straight into your application/binary and calling function names). It really boils down to the definition of a "derivative work". As an example: A Paypal plugin for Wordpress should not fall under this, yet the developers for Wordpress think it does. The entire situation with Thesis will only hurt Wordpress in the future. As a developer, why would I want to create any Wordpress plugins or themes if someone else is going to lay claim to my work (which really is my work. If the guy from thesis was actually re-distributing Wordpress along with his theme, it would be a different story)? It's scary to think that the people that have talked about Freedom for so long are getting just as restrictive and bad as the RIAA/MPAA.
  - LogicHoleFlaw 16y ago
    anything compiled using the GNU compiler would be also under the GNU (since you would be compiling libraries from this compiler straight into your application/binary and calling function names There is an explicit exception in the GCC licensing to allow compiled programs incorporating GCC runtime code to be distributed under any license the author wishes. You can read more about this topic at http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gcc-exception-faq.html http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gcc-exception-faq.html The compiled program is in fact a derivative work of the incorporated libraries and it is only this explicit exception which allows for the greater work to be redistributed under another license.
    - 0bfusct3 16y ago
      Then taking it all the way down to the hardware, every user of x86 should be required to agree to a license agreement to use an x86 processor since it 'interprets' opcodes on-the-fly thus everything that uses x86 is under an intel license QED. I don't know the full details of the thesis theme but use an API doesn't constitute violation of the GPL v2 - see: tivo and thousands of routers, wireless cards, etc.
      - quadhome 16y ago
        The are multiple licenses for the x86 ISA. And companies that produce common chipsets specifically allow open development on top of them. They make more money that way. This wasn't always the case, though. It's easy to forget history.
        0bfusct3 16y ago
        My example may have been flawed (it was meant for exaggeration ) but the point still remains that API use is fine under GPL v2.
        chopsueyar 16y ago
        I assume you have successfully litigated this position in a US court on multiple occasions?
- drewcrawford 16y ago
  > Just because you believe it to be the case that users of libraries are not derivatives of those libraries does not make it true. Just because you believe a set of machine instructions to be a library does not make it true. The real problem is, we are now trying to legally define something that's really only a convenient mental abstraction for dividing up "things a processor does" into bins. Where does one package begin and another one end? Your processor doesn't know. It's a fiction. Often, a very useful fiction. But then we get edge cases and the analogy breaks down. Thesis complied in the most technical sense (no CSS, JS, or images) so I'm not sure how this accomplished anything in the name of "software freedom."
- credo 16y ago
  In this case, it does seem like Pearson violated the GPL license. It is probably worth noting that Google didn't use the GPL license for Android. I'm assuming that Google chose to go with the Apache License for Android because they thought that the GPL license would inhibit some commercial development (e.g. a handset-maker who doesn't like GPL) from building on top of the platform.
- rick888 16y ago
  "Which Mullenweg and the FSF believe is right. Which is the reason the LGPL exists." Would you consider a Nintendo cartridge a derivative work of the Actual System? It obviously uses components of the actual system. This court case: http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=10867856245078964488&q=galoob+nintendo&hl=en&as_sdt=2002 http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1086785624507896... Galoob VS Nintendo This was about the game genie. Here is what the court concluded: "The Game Genie is useless by itself, it can only enhance, and cannot duplicate or recaste, [sic] a Nintendo game’s output. It does not contain or produce a Nintendo game’s output in some concrete or permanent form, nor does it supplant demand for Nintendo game cartridges. Such innovations rarely will constitute infringing derivative works under the Copyright Act." So, if the theme doesn't use actual Wordpress code (IE: beyond function calls) or "supplant demand" for Wordpress itself, it's not a derivative work.
- slantyyz 16y ago
  That's exactly the reason why I would have loved to have seen this go to a court decision.

drewcrawford 16y ago

Off-topic: What does Thesis actually do? Most Wordpress "Themes" I've seen actually make your blog look a certain way. Thesis seems to be focused on giving you the tools to do... something to do with how your blog looks, but I can't figure out exactly what. And none of the blogs in the showcase look anything like each other. Is this intended to replace freelance WP theme designers? Or is it intended to be something that they somehow use in their designs? It doesn't help that all the video tutorials are behind a paywall... http://diythemes.com/thesis/generate-affiliate-links/ http://diythemes.com/thesis/generate-affiliate-links/ So maybe I am just not in the target market for whatever this thing is, but I cannot understand why I would want it.

callmeed 16y ago
I believe it's considered a "theme framework" ... I think it adds panels/setting to the WP admin, allowing you to adjust column widths and other aspects of the blog.
- noodle 16y ago
  so, its a theme plus a plugin? does this instantly kill the entire premium theme/plugin market?
  - zacharyz 16y ago
    Not at all. The rest of the premium theme and plugin market already works under/with the GPL.
    - noodle 16y ago
      fair enough. thanks for the info.
oscardelben 16y ago
It gives you an area in your admin panel where you can custom functions, change the colors, text settings and layout. It also gives you the ability to customize the css. You still need to hire a designer if you want to differentiate it from other people, unless you're happy with the default.

photomatt 16y ago

Whew, glad that one is done.

westi 16y ago
Indeed we can focus more on the code again now :-)

HyprMusic 16y ago

“Even if Thesis hadn’t copy and pasted large swathes of code from WordPress (and GPL plugins) its PHP (PHP) would still need to be under the GPL,” Is this really true? I never thought a theme interfacing with other software using public APIs is a derivative. Is it just the GPL that sees it this way or is it the actual copyright laws too?

kj12345 16y ago
Yeah I don't understand this either. Is there any way to sell a closed-source piece of software which integrates with Wordpress? What's the difference from software like www.copilot.com which uses GPL software (TightVNC) at its core?

tjogin 16y ago

Can somebody provide me with the GPL'ed parts of Thesis? Shouldn't be a problem, right?

Supermighty 16y ago

It’s not a complete win for FOSS, but at least it’s fair, compliant and fork-able. It's a complete win for FOSS. The GPL is intended to preserve the rights and openness of the original software, not to force people into releasing their own original creations.

Supermighty 16y ago
There is a difference between libre and gratis after all.