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I'm always glad to hear news about the advancement of solar power, but I don't hear as much about advancement in batteries or storage. The manufacturing of batt

by Pigo 9y ago

I'm always glad to hear news about the advancement of solar power, but I don't hear as much about advancement in batteries or storage. The manufacturing of batteries is not a clean and renewable resource, or have I missed some new methods or ways of extracting rare minerals.

hacker_9 9y ago
This is what I wonder, especially with Elon building the so called 'giga factory'. How sustainable really is it?
- jackmott 9y ago
  https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycling-program https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycl...
- Brammarb 9y ago
  Lithium isn't terribly rare, and li-ion batteries can be recycled and all of its contents can be reused in the production of new batteries. Lead acid car batteries are already collected for recycling at very high rates in most areas, so there's no reason why li-ion car batteries wouldn't be collected and recycled as well.
  - altcognito 9y ago
    They really ought to put a surcharge on Lithium batteries and convenient places to recycle them at some point. Do for Lithium what we did for aluminum. (it's also time to probably upgrade the return value for cans as well)
  - dragontamer 9y ago
    Its not the Lithium that's problematic. Its the Cobalt. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/congo-cobalt-mining-for-lithium-ion-battery/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/c... Newer forms of Lithium Ion batteries may avoid the Cobalt, but Cobalt-based Lithium Ion is still the most popular IIRC. Cobalt Mining is dangerous, toxic, and centralized in politically unstable regions (Child Labor, poor conditions, etc. etc.) -------- Lithium itself is located in many locations around the world. IIRC, there's a bit Lithium Mine in Nevada.
jackmott 9y ago
http://media.greenmonk.net/greenmonk/files/2015/11/Li-IonDensity.jpg http://media.greenmonk.net/greenmonk/files/2015/11/Li-IonDen...
- parametrek 9y ago
  Technology hasn't kept up with that line. Here are 18650 cells on the market, sorted by Wh/kg: http://batteries.parametrek.com/index.html?size=18650&wh_kg=_+_+dec http://batteries.parametrek.com/index.html?size=18650&wh_kg=... The best are still only 276 Wh/kg, no where near the 350 Wh/kg the graph would predict.
ZeroGravitas 9y ago
The use of the word "rare" seems to be a reliable indicator that people have been exposed to anti-renewable propaganda. Rare-earth elements are not rare. "Despite their name, rare-earth elements are – with the exception of the radioactive promethium – relatively plentiful in Earth's crust, with cerium being the 25th most abundant element at 68 parts per million, or as abundant as copper." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare-earth_element https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare-earth_element And, further, many batteries and renewable power sources don't even use any Rare-earths. As to your question, there's lots going on in storage, it wouldn't suprise me if 1/5th of the stories on a renewable tech blog were about progress and breakthroughts in various types of storage.
- Pigo 9y ago
  This is definitely not my field of expertise, I want to hear that energy is becoming cleaner, and renewable. I guess I believe that this is the right direction, and still better than just continuing on the road we've been on. But when I see articles like this https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/congo-cobalt-mining-for-lithium-ion-battery/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/c... I can't help but wonder if we still have a ways to go. Or is this anti-renewable propaganda?
  - ZeroGravitas 9y ago
    It is if you act like it only applies to renewables. Coal gets mined too, killing people from the very start to the very end of its lifecycle. I note the actual headline has an iPhone icon and the text "This is where mobile technology begins". A similar common bait-and-switch is to talk about how EVs are bad if you generate your electricity from coal. The mental gymnastics necessary to take that data and decide "Maybe we shouldn't use EVs" rather than "Maybe we shouldn't use coal" is a wonder to behold. So, as long as you're saying, let's do the cleanest of all the options, that's cool. Because the cleanest answer is solar, wind, EVs and storage (including lithium ion) amongst other techs and any honest approach to doing the most efficient, least destructive thing is only going to help speed them on their way. If you're bringing it up for the same reason people bring up birds being killed by wind power, or coal powered EVs generating pollution, or how global warming isn't even a real thing etc. then yeah, it's fairly well-funded propaganda you're spreading around.
tim333 9y ago
Battery prices are falling each year too https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/15/ev-battery-prices-looking-back-years-forward-yet/ https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/15/ev-battery-prices-looki... Maybe you don't hear as much but progress is ongoing. I thought the recent stuff on rechargeable polymer alkaline batteries sounded promising https://www.wired.com/story/bill-joy-finds-the-jesus-battery/ https://www.wired.com/story/bill-joy-finds-the-jesus-battery... Potentially <1/2 the price of Li Ion and without a fire / explosion risk that could make them good for bulk gird storage. Already batteries are starting to compete with gas peaker plants https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/ge-digital-gas-plants-vs-utility-scale-batteries https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/ge-digital-gas-...

by Pigo 9y ago

hacker_9 9y ago

This is what I wonder, especially with Elon building the so called 'giga factory'. How sustainable really is it?

jackmott 9y ago
https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycling-program https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycl...
Brammarb 9y ago
Lithium isn't terribly rare, and li-ion batteries can be recycled and all of its contents can be reused in the production of new batteries. Lead acid car batteries are already collected for recycling at very high rates in most areas, so there's no reason why li-ion car batteries wouldn't be collected and recycled as well.
- altcognito 9y ago
  They really ought to put a surcharge on Lithium batteries and convenient places to recycle them at some point. Do for Lithium what we did for aluminum. (it's also time to probably upgrade the return value for cans as well)
- dragontamer 9y ago
  Its not the Lithium that's problematic. Its the Cobalt. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/congo-cobalt-mining-for-lithium-ion-battery/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/c... Newer forms of Lithium Ion batteries may avoid the Cobalt, but Cobalt-based Lithium Ion is still the most popular IIRC. Cobalt Mining is dangerous, toxic, and centralized in politically unstable regions (Child Labor, poor conditions, etc. etc.) -------- Lithium itself is located in many locations around the world. IIRC, there's a bit Lithium Mine in Nevada.

jackmott 9y ago

http://media.greenmonk.net/greenmonk/files/2015/11/Li-IonDensity.jpg http://media.greenmonk.net/greenmonk/files/2015/11/Li-IonDen...

parametrek 9y ago
Technology hasn't kept up with that line. Here are 18650 cells on the market, sorted by Wh/kg: http://batteries.parametrek.com/index.html?size=18650&wh_kg=_+_+dec http://batteries.parametrek.com/index.html?size=18650&wh_kg=... The best are still only 276 Wh/kg, no where near the 350 Wh/kg the graph would predict.

ZeroGravitas 9y ago

The use of the word "rare" seems to be a reliable indicator that people have been exposed to anti-renewable propaganda. Rare-earth elements are not rare. "Despite their name, rare-earth elements are – with the exception of the radioactive promethium – relatively plentiful in Earth's crust, with cerium being the 25th most abundant element at 68 parts per million, or as abundant as copper." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare-earth_element https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare-earth_element And, further, many batteries and renewable power sources don't even use any Rare-earths. As to your question, there's lots going on in storage, it wouldn't suprise me if 1/5th of the stories on a renewable tech blog were about progress and breakthroughts in various types of storage.

Pigo 9y ago
This is definitely not my field of expertise, I want to hear that energy is becoming cleaner, and renewable. I guess I believe that this is the right direction, and still better than just continuing on the road we've been on. But when I see articles like this https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/congo-cobalt-mining-for-lithium-ion-battery/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/c... I can't help but wonder if we still have a ways to go. Or is this anti-renewable propaganda?
- ZeroGravitas 9y ago
  It is if you act like it only applies to renewables. Coal gets mined too, killing people from the very start to the very end of its lifecycle. I note the actual headline has an iPhone icon and the text "This is where mobile technology begins". A similar common bait-and-switch is to talk about how EVs are bad if you generate your electricity from coal. The mental gymnastics necessary to take that data and decide "Maybe we shouldn't use EVs" rather than "Maybe we shouldn't use coal" is a wonder to behold. So, as long as you're saying, let's do the cleanest of all the options, that's cool. Because the cleanest answer is solar, wind, EVs and storage (including lithium ion) amongst other techs and any honest approach to doing the most efficient, least destructive thing is only going to help speed them on their way. If you're bringing it up for the same reason people bring up birds being killed by wind power, or coal powered EVs generating pollution, or how global warming isn't even a real thing etc. then yeah, it's fairly well-funded propaganda you're spreading around.

tim333 9y ago

Battery prices are falling each year too https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/15/ev-battery-prices-looking-back-years-forward-yet/ https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/15/ev-battery-prices-looki... Maybe you don't hear as much but progress is ongoing. I thought the recent stuff on rechargeable polymer alkaline batteries sounded promising https://www.wired.com/story/bill-joy-finds-the-jesus-battery/ https://www.wired.com/story/bill-joy-finds-the-jesus-battery... Potentially <1/2 the price of Li Ion and without a fire / explosion risk that could make them good for bulk gird storage. Already batteries are starting to compete with gas peaker plants https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/ge-digital-gas-plants-vs-utility-scale-batteries https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/ge-digital-gas-...