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> the team discovered lymphatic vessels in the dura, the leathery outer coating of the brain Can someone explain why these vessels were never discovered during
by mysterypie 9y ago
> the team discovered lymphatic vessels in the dura, the leathery outer coating of the brain
Can someone explain why these vessels were never discovered during autopsies until now? Are they too thin, or transparent, or thought to have been something else, or the tubes become squished after death and therefore difficult to separate from other tissue, or what?
- Boothroid 9y agoI wonder the same thing. Not to be snarky, but is there something faulty about medics or human biologists?! Why do I have a feeling that if we deployed computer scientists at medical research we would get a better result? I can accept that at the lower level things get fiendishly complex, but surely at a macro level like this it's just a case of diligent analysis?
- junke 9y agohttps://xkcd.com/1831/ https://xkcd.com/1831/
- skocznymroczny 9y agoReplace "Algorithms" with "Machine learning" and you have 2017.
- Boothroid 9y agoHardly the same thing.
- pc86 9y agoIt is... exactly what you're saying. Except it's satire, and unfortunately you seem to be serious.
- Boothroid 9y agoRead: I can accept that at the lower level things get fiendishly complex, but surely at a macro level like this it's just a case of diligent analysis? How are they missing features that are visible with the human eye? I find it incredible. Also, XKCD meme is the tiredest meme around.
- lawlessone 9y agoYou should post this on r/iamverysmart, they would "love" you.
- SketchySeaBeast 9y agoI think this may be an example of the Dunning–Kruger effect - when they complexities aren't understood, it's easy to makes assumptions where you simplify to absurdity.
- Boothroid 9y agoDunning-Kruger is another lazy meme.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- blubb-fish 9y agoMost professionals in the field of medicine were educated towards an elitist and dogmatic mindset. When I talk with a physician about the human body I always get the impression they really believe the body works as described in the books - exactly like that. Most of them didn't seem to have noticed or learned that what we know about medicine is just theory approximating reality and all of those theories had to be updated sooner or later - always.
- MyNameHere 9y agoMedical doctors are not Ph.D.'s. They are technicians, more akin to an auto mechanic than a scientist.
- scrumper 9y ago(I get the point you're making, but many, at least in the UK, are also dual qualified: Ph.D's as well as MDs.)
- grandalf 9y ago> more akin to an auto mechanic than a scientist Keep in mind that society has chosen to have physicians carry social and often moral authority. They are the modern priests and priestesses of our secular world. What stings when a physician is impatient or misses something obvious is the disrespect people feel because of the physician's venerated status. It's as if a person of faith is visiting a Bishop and the Bishop mutters a profanity during the blessing. The irritation and accusations of arrogance toward physicians that are found in this thread are (if read carefully) reflections of the unique, clergy-like role that physicians play. A physician's opinion can get you decades of workers comp or can deny it to you, it can make you feel responsible for a health problem or vindicated, it can result in the removal of pain or the continuation of it. Physicians let some people get high every day on any number of drugs, declare others bad surgical candidates, and instill (or withhold) hope in those whose life hangs in the balance. It's a deeply moral role, and the trend toward free healthcare for all is analogous to publishing the bible in languages besides Latin. Physicians are gatekeepers to redemption and this makes some people very angry.
- 9y ago
- userbinator 9y agoReminds me of this: https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/01/can-modern-neuroscience-understand-donkey-kong/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/01/can-modern-neuroscie...
- Boothroid 9y agoAs I said in my comment, at a macro level. I just don't understand how new human anatomical features that are not even at a microscopic level are still being discovered in 2017. It boggles the mind.
- _jal 9y ago> Why do I have a feeling that if we deployed computer scientists at medical research we would get a better result? Because comp sci has an arrogance problem that rivals that of doctors?
- graphitezepp 9y agoThe only difference (from my perspective of course) is comp sci arrogance is directed towards our field and associated methodologies, principles, etc. Doctors direct their arrogance towards themselves.
- oddlyaromatic 9y agoThis generalization is pretty large and may itself be an example of arrogance. But I think maybe it's just the brevity of your comment that gives this impression.
- graphitezepp 9y agoThanks for being charitable, I did not mean to imply that what I claim many comp sci people do is any better or less arrogant, just different.
- oddlyaromatic 9y agoIt implies you know what doctors do about as well as you know what comp sci people do, by virtue of comparing the two. The comp sci part is at risk of taking your anecdotal experience as too representative of the whole. The doctor part is (presumably) at risk of relying on stereotypes about doctors having "God complexes" ... So to get to an effective general comparison would be quite difficult without more accurate data. Buuut if we see ourselves as smart computer people, maybe we think more highly of our own inferences than they deserve. I would expect doctors' arrogance has a lot to do with their training and respect for their processes and practices as being highly reliable and advanced. Rather than them personally just having a talent for doctoring.
- deleted 9y ago
- pedrosorio 9y agoComputer scientists are the new physicists: https://xkcd.com/793/ https://xkcd.com/793/
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- etiam 9y agoKipnis made a mention of this in an interview closer to the actual discovery: As to how the brain’s lymphatic vessels managed to escape notice all this time, Kipnis described them as “very well hidden” and noted that they follow a major blood vessel down into the sinuses, an area difficult to image. “It’s so close to the blood vessel, you just miss it,” he said. “If you don’t know what you’re after, you just miss it.” http://neurosciencenews.com/lymphatic-system-brain-neurobiology-2080/ http://neurosciencenews.com/lymphatic-system-brain-neurobiol...
- Flenser 9y agoconsidering the article also says: Lymphatic vessels are part of the body’s circulatory system. In most of the body they run alongside blood vessels. it's somewhat surprising (in hindsight I admit) that no-one thought to look for them there before.
- etiam 9y agoWho says no-one thought to look? But apparently only one person on record found them before. How about you have a peek at the research article, think away the colors from the antibody staining and see if you still consider it strange that it could go undiscovered. The things in question are appropriately measured on a micrometer scale, fragile to match and tightly tangled up with similar things inside jelly. And needless to say they don't come with helpful colored plastic hulls or developer defined object type annotation for inspection.
- Brammarb 9y agoI would imagine there are quite a number of blood vessels in the brain ...
- lr4444lr 9y agoThen what of the Italian scientist who noted them 200 years ago? All of those dissections and attention to research in the modern age and it was actually taught in medical school that the brain had no lymphatic system? Seems a little far-fetched.
- gm-conspiracy 9y agoIs it visible within this project? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visible_Human_Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visible_Human_Project
- signa11 9y agofta: In 1816, an Italian anatomist reported finding lymphatic vessels on the surface of the brain, but for two centuries, it was forgotten. Until very recently, researchers in the modern era found no evidence of a lymphatic system in the brain, leaving some puzzled about how the brain drains waste, and others to conclude that brain is an exceptional organ. Then in 2015, two studies of mice found evidence of the brain’s lymphatic system in the dura. Coincidentally, that year, Dr. Reich saw a presentation by Jonathan Kipnis, Ph.D., a professor at the University of Virginia and an author of one the mouse studies.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- nscalf 9y agoA few years ago we discovered a new ligament in the knee. Knee injuries that frequently require surgery are so common in children that it's considered an epidemic. I don't really have a good answer to why we don't know about these things, but this isn't the only case of it lately.