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The linked anti-union article is more interesting than the original article IMO. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/07/silicon-valleys-anti-unionism-and-

• zdkl 9y ago
  I very strongly disagree with the "unskilled" part. I am not a labor scholar either, but unions serve to federate common interests of workers who may not individually have leverage against their employer or relevant regulation body. Because your employer in tech can afford to give you a lifestyle easily in the highest couple percentiles doesn't mean you aren't replaceable and that you won't need representation as a class of worker at some point.
  • mobiletelephone 9y ago
    Wages are high if the supply of labour is low and the employer has money for wages. If supply is low and the employer does not have money, then the job won't exist. This is why tech workers wouldn't benefit from a union very much.
    • zdkl 9y ago
      Can you elaborate on the relation of your second clause and your conclusion? I'm not seeing how this relates to the role and nature of unions.
    • TeMPOraL 9y ago
      It's not gonna last forever this way. Unions are not very useful for developers now, but you might want to have them already in-place by the time they become needed.
      • eru 9y ago
        Unions are mostly there to keep out newcomers and non-union members. Eg strike breakers. I'm internationally mobile, so I'm often the newcomer. (And from a philosophical point of view, programmers are so well paid that even taking that down a nodge to the benefit of the general public would be fine. What we have to make sure is that forming new tech companies becomes easier and easier---so that any general cheapening of programmers benefits the customers and not the owners of companies. Traditionally, unions are the very opposite of lowering barriers to market entry.)
        • TeMPOraL 9y ago
          > programmers are so well paid that even taking that down a nodge to the benefit of the general public would be fine The problem is, taking that down a nodge will not benefit the general public. All the surplus will be eaten up by the companies. I suppose there are two ways to view this - putting up barriers to entry vs. preventing wages from being driven down by encouraging everyone and their dog to become coders. At this point I sort of see it as both at the same time. The reasons unions could be useful in the future is both to preserve a reasonable standard of living for tech employees and to help oppose unethical demands from employers. Right now, tech employees have some leverage over their bosses. Without unions, this will eventually end.
          • freeflight 9y ago
            > All the surplus will be eaten up by the companies. That can easily be fixed by plugging tax evasion loopholes and generally taxing higher. If there's a will then there's a way, the problem is pretty much finding the way everybody agrees on.
            • eru 9y ago
              See https://transformationdeal.org/2016/04/24/how-a-basic-income-combined-with-land-value-tax-could-work-in-the-us/ https://transformationdeal.org/2016/04/24/how-a-basic-income... for a very straight forward proposal.
    • pdpi 9y ago
      You're assuming that wages are the only thing worth arguing over. Work environment, tools, work/life balance are all things that you might want, and where you might need leverage to get them.
      • emodendroket 9y ago
        Also the stuff about age discrimination. It's weird to me that so many people here are unconcerned about that because, like... we're all going to be old someday (hopefully).
    • emodendroket 9y ago
      Has everyone already forgotten that Google and Apple wage-fixing scandal? In the real world there are factors beyond the Econ 101 stuff.
• nerfhammer 9y ago
  Unions seem to have more tractability where you expect to have the same employer for life.
  • eru 9y ago
    It's a bit hard to talk about unions in general. Eg the Americans have these unions for people working in the entertainment industry (eg actors guild or so?), and those people usually work on a project basis, don't they? On a historical note, I am currently reading A Generation of Materialism. The book has some very interesting bits about the early history of unions in Europe.
    • nerfhammer 9y ago
      Of course. If I think of cases where people might expect to have the same employer for life I think you'll be more likely to find unionization there. Not that it cannot happen outside of that condition.
• humanrebar 9y ago
  > ...unions are becoming obselete in the US... They don't make sense for knowledge workers. Knowledge workers are rarely interchangeable, so standardizing contracts, job titles, pay schedules, working conditions, etc., makes little sense. There is also the chance for protectionism (closed shops) that runs counter to the freelance culture in tech. Some sort of worker-administered group could make a lot of sense. But maybe a guild or cooperative instead. Services that would be useful, especially (or only) if employers weren't paying the bill: * Personal negotiation agents * Career consultants. Lots of engineers are very underpaid and need some help holding their boss accountable. Or finding the next job. * (Re)training. Engineers shouldn't specialize themselves into early retirement. * Lobbying and marketing. Do you want BigCo telling your congressman what you think? * Independent research and reporting on work environments. Some push back on penny-wise, pound-foolish facilities decisions. * Charitable technology work not under a corporate brand * Insurance, modulo whether competitive tax advantages can be arranged. Setting up pools for disability and life insurance, at least. Maybe healthcare if the tax advantages can be worked out.
  • ForHackernews 9y ago
    A guild is just a union by another name. The Screenwriters Guild, the Screen Actors Guild, and the various professional sports unions (e.g. NFLPA) are all good examples of unions representing highly-paid, non-interchangable workers.
    • humanrebar 9y ago
      I actually had those in mind as close to what might make sense. Though agent responsibilities might be assumed by the guild as well. However, the organizations you list have gone in strike as leverage in collective negotiations. That is an aspect I doubt makes sense for tech outside of basic health or ethical concerns. Both the collective bargaining and the striking.
  • pault 9y ago
    I never thought I was underpaid until a year ago when I asked for double my previous salary (now in low six figures) at a new position and nobody blinked. I had been leaving a LOT of money on the table and didn't know it!
• notacoward 9y ago
  > Unions existed to protect workers who were unskilled and interchangeable I think that's pretty offensive to a lot of tradespeople. If you think plumbers, carpenters, or electricians are unskilled, try doing what they do. Unions protected both skilled and unskilled workers. Whether they continue to do so, or whether they can serve in that role for information workers, is quite an interesting question, but skilled vs. unskilled is not at the crux of it.
  • notyourday 9y ago
    They are definitely interchangeable. What currently is happening is that the bottom 95th percentile of people in software engineering and product are discovering that they are also completely utterly interchangeable.
• emodendroket 9y ago
  The union is obsolete because workers are more interchangeable than ever? That is, uh, not how I would read it.