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What It Looks Like When the President Asks People to Snitch on Neighbors

33 points by keitmo 9y ago

macawfish 9y ago
This is just obscene on so many levels.
CptMauli 9y ago
Anyone surprised? This is exactly how it went in East Germany where everybody was encouraged to rat out their neighbors to the authorities about "staatszersetzendes Verhalten", just like what China is doing to its citizens still. This stuff is the hallmark of a police state.
- emsy 9y ago
  I loathe the comparison of Trump's presidency with fascism or now eastern bloc denunciation. I would appreciate it if we could criticize bad policies on their own merit, without the exaggerated historic comparisons. In my opinion, this is just fuel for division.
  - CptMauli 9y ago
    I don't see that as a Trump specific thing. As mentioned in other comments, other facilities for the same purpose existed before. VOICE just makes it much more visible. I totally disagree that this is an exaggerated historic comparison. As someone who grew up in East Germany, all the measures which restrict the individual freedoms, which were put into place, over the years, make me sad and angry. And having historical examples which show the bad effects of such policies in a very striking manner is in my opinion a very useful shorthand, instead of elaborately discussing a policy (with an expected outcome). Especially the effects of Stasi methods are well researched, so they are a very useful comparison indeed. I just wanted to pint out that what the article discusses has very close parallels to what we know about the "usefulness" of the same methods in e.g. East Germany.
- majewsky 9y ago
  > "staatszersetzendes Verhalten" For those who cannot speak German, a literal translation would be "state-dissolving behavior". It sounds more dramatic in German, though. :)
RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago
http://chicagotonight.wttw.com/2016/12/02/new-hotline-deals-solely-reports-discrimination-hate-crimes http://chicagotonight.wttw.com/2016/12/02/new-hotline-deals-... Whether it's considered snitching or reporting by concerned citizens depends on your political views.
- mc32 9y ago
  Indeed, not very different from: https://www.immi-moj.go.jp/immimail/datainput.php https://www.immi-moj.go.jp/immimail/datainput.php Or http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/protection/fraud/report.asp http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/protection/fraud/re... Where you can report overstayers etc.
- jonny_eh 9y ago
  The line can surely be blurry, but I'd say that reporting people for doing something that has no effect on you, and harms no one, is snitching. Being an undocumented immigrant in America is no more harmful to society than being a jew in 1930s Germany.
  - BartSaM 9y ago
    - pugworthy 9y ago
      And next we can ask, "How do we know some of the jews weren't criminals?" perhaps?
    - yodon 9y ago
      Wow. The translation of your "How do you know that such an imigrant is not being a criminal?" to the equivalent statement in 1930's Germany is so direct and so poignant, I would have thought you were trying to support the parent's post, but I believe you're using that line to try to fault their thinking (which I find genuinely frightening in terms of the object lesson it presents on the ease of vilifying a "them" group, and how easily that kind of rhetoric can creep into polite conversation)
fiokoden 9y ago
This needs to be flooded with legit sounding cases to dilute it out of existence.
voxadam 9y ago
At the risk of invoking Godwin, I have to say that this frighteningly reminiscent of the stories that Milton Mayer details in his 1955 book "The Thought They Were Free: The German's 1933-45" .
- relics443 9y ago
  Other than the fact that the Jews were living there as legal citizens, not illegal immigrants.
  - voxadam 9y ago
    I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. The parallels that I see are related to the institutionalization of neighbor spying on neighbor. All that's missing are sanctioned and codified Blockleiters.
Overtonwindow 9y ago
This same behavior is why the IRS does not allow for anonymous reporting of tax violations. I think this article is overreaching in their fear, and perhaps fear-mongering. If a crime has been committed then a citizen is well within their rights to report it. You may not like that as a matter of politics, but it is legal. We should not be afraid to report behavior we feel might be illegal due to political correctness[0], or politics but at the same time, retaliatory use of law enforcement for crimes not justified should be punished. [0] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3344736/Neighbors-Saudi-husband-wife-San-Bernardino-shooters-noticed-acting-suspiciously-did-NOT-report-fear-racial-profiling.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3344736/Neighbors-Sa...

33 points by keitmo 9y ago

This is just obscene on so many levels.

Anyone surprised? This is exactly how it went in East Germany where everybody was encouraged to rat out their neighbors to the authorities about "staatszersetzendes Verhalten", just like what China is doing to its citizens still. This stuff is the hallmark of a police state.

emsy 9y ago
I loathe the comparison of Trump's presidency with fascism or now eastern bloc denunciation. I would appreciate it if we could criticize bad policies on their own merit, without the exaggerated historic comparisons. In my opinion, this is just fuel for division.
- CptMauli 9y ago
  I don't see that as a Trump specific thing. As mentioned in other comments, other facilities for the same purpose existed before. VOICE just makes it much more visible. I totally disagree that this is an exaggerated historic comparison. As someone who grew up in East Germany, all the measures which restrict the individual freedoms, which were put into place, over the years, make me sad and angry. And having historical examples which show the bad effects of such policies in a very striking manner is in my opinion a very useful shorthand, instead of elaborately discussing a policy (with an expected outcome). Especially the effects of Stasi methods are well researched, so they are a very useful comparison indeed. I just wanted to pint out that what the article discusses has very close parallels to what we know about the "usefulness" of the same methods in e.g. East Germany.
majewsky 9y ago
> "staatszersetzendes Verhalten" For those who cannot speak German, a literal translation would be "state-dissolving behavior". It sounds more dramatic in German, though. :)

RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago

http://chicagotonight.wttw.com/2016/12/02/new-hotline-deals-solely-reports-discrimination-hate-crimes http://chicagotonight.wttw.com/2016/12/02/new-hotline-deals-... Whether it's considered snitching or reporting by concerned citizens depends on your political views.

mc32 9y ago
Indeed, not very different from: https://www.immi-moj.go.jp/immimail/datainput.php https://www.immi-moj.go.jp/immimail/datainput.php Or http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/protection/fraud/report.asp http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/protection/fraud/re... Where you can report overstayers etc.
jonny_eh 9y ago
The line can surely be blurry, but I'd say that reporting people for doing something that has no effect on you, and harms no one, is snitching. Being an undocumented immigrant in America is no more harmful to society than being a jew in 1930s Germany.
- BartSaM 9y ago
  - pugworthy 9y ago
    And next we can ask, "How do we know some of the jews weren't criminals?" perhaps?
  - yodon 9y ago
    Wow. The translation of your "How do you know that such an imigrant is not being a criminal?" to the equivalent statement in 1930's Germany is so direct and so poignant, I would have thought you were trying to support the parent's post, but I believe you're using that line to try to fault their thinking (which I find genuinely frightening in terms of the object lesson it presents on the ease of vilifying a "them" group, and how easily that kind of rhetoric can creep into polite conversation)

fiokoden 9y ago

This needs to be flooded with legit sounding cases to dilute it out of existence.

voxadam 9y ago

At the risk of invoking Godwin, I have to say that this frighteningly reminiscent of the stories that Milton Mayer details in his 1955 book "The Thought They Were Free: The German's 1933-45" .

relics443 9y ago
Other than the fact that the Jews were living there as legal citizens, not illegal immigrants.
- voxadam 9y ago
  I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. The parallels that I see are related to the institutionalization of neighbor spying on neighbor. All that's missing are sanctioned and codified Blockleiters.

Overtonwindow 9y ago

This same behavior is why the IRS does not allow for anonymous reporting of tax violations. I think this article is overreaching in their fear, and perhaps fear-mongering. If a crime has been committed then a citizen is well within their rights to report it. You may not like that as a matter of politics, but it is legal. We should not be afraid to report behavior we feel might be illegal due to political correctness[0], or politics but at the same time, retaliatory use of law enforcement for crimes not justified should be punished. [0] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3344736/Neighbors-Saudi-husband-wife-San-Bernardino-shooters-noticed-acting-suspiciously-did-NOT-report-fear-racial-profiling.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3344736/Neighbors-Sa...