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The solution to stopping stupidity like this is to take a 12 month tour of duty at the US Digital Service: https://www.usds.gov/join#tours-of-duty https://www.

The solution to stopping stupidity like this is to take a 12 month tour of duty at the US Digital Service: https://www.usds.gov/join#tours-of-duty https://www.usds.gov/join#tours-of-duty Yes the bureaucrats, lobbyists, and special interests will continue fucking everything up. But the USDS is set up so that at least competent technologists can throw up some objective defense vs. the government officials who really think Equifax is a viable solution aka "Nobody ever got fired buying an IBM."

kelnos 9y ago
Yes and no. USDS doesn't exactly have domain over all US gov't IT decisions, and aren't even involved or have any influence over a lot of things. Not to mention that the idea of taking a massive pay cut and having to move to DC holds no appeal to me.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- loeg 9y ago
  I'm also turned off by the idea of switching jobs just to switch again in one year. Even if the pay cut and DC were palatable.
make3 9y ago
I can't imagine being a subordinate to Jared fucking Kushner for a full year
- pimlottc 9y ago
  USDS is not subordinate to Jared Kushner. We work with the Office of American Innovation on projects that align with our values, but ultimately we decide what projects to engage on. Which is pretty unique within the government.
  - CalRobert 9y ago
    When Mr. Kushner issues a dictat that you are no longer to work on <potentially embarrassing issue for the administration>, you'll get a test of who ultimately decides what projects to engage on.
    - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
      So? I think the todo list more than long enough to keep USDS busy for four or eight years even if you strike all the potentially politically sensitive things from it.
  - alistairSH 9y ago
    From the top of the USDS website: An official website of the Executive Office of the President
cookiecaper 9y ago
That seems like an exercise in futility. These are, at their core, political/management issues. Getting coders involved and misleading them into believing their code will do something to counteract the incentives that cause such behavior is just going to lead to a lot of very frustrated coders.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  Right, the solution isn't to take a 1-year term at USDS, it's to go beyond coding to IT management while not losing respect for the people working the technology, building political connections, and getting appointed to positions like Department CIO for a government department. And that's not the solution so much as getting into position to really make an impact on the problem. And, yeah, it's not easy. Solving big institutional problems isn't. OTOH, a term at USDS may give you an opportunity to work around the fringes of the problem and grasp it's grand outline better. And the scale of government is such that a small improvement can be a big deal.
smsm42 9y ago
"You must be willing to move to Washington, DC". Oh well. Ever heard of videochat? I mean what exactly are they doing there that requires physical presence at DC?
- pimlottc 9y ago
  Going where the work is. Actually showing up at an agency and sitting down face to face with people that could use help buys a lot of credibility, especially in the public sector.
- recursive 9y ago
  Telecommuting employees are always harder to reach than the ones in the office. And yes, I've heard of video chat.
artursapek 9y ago
Wow, I haven't heard of USDS before! But I recently used a website they apparently built (uscis.gov) and remember being very impressed with it. It surpassed my expectations for a government website by far: sane password policy, material design, easy to use navigation, well designed application flow... Encouraging to see people with modern best practices in mind working for the government.
twunde 9y ago
I actually went to a talk recently by USDS and 18F. Really enjoyed it and seriously considering going to one of them as my next job. A few clarifications: * USDS limits employees to two consecutive years. * 18F, it's sister agency, does support remote work. They're more like consultants and switch between different agencies project by project.
erentz 9y ago
I would be very interested in doing this. Unfortunately I just checked their pay scales and... well, they’re pretty bad. Which to be honest surprises me because I’ve followed some of what USDS/18F do and they have talented folks.
- pimlottc 9y ago
  The pay is definitely below Bay Area standards, though it's quite good for government. Ultimately though the main draw is not the pay, it's the chance to use your tech skills to make a truly meaningful real-world impact on a large scale.
  - shitlord 9y ago
    > Ultimately though the main draw is not the pay, it's the chance to use your tech skills to make a truly meaningful real-world impact on a large scale. I, personally, wouldn't value that opportunity at $100k+. This is really Congress' fault for having such an awful pay system.
- alistairSH 9y ago
  While I can easily find the GS scales, do any of you know how typical USDS or 18f positions map to the GS? Would a senior developer be a GS10 or GS15? GS15 would be competitive with DC software salaries (all benefits included). GS10, not so much.
  - alistairSH 9y ago
    Answered my own question (sort of)... similar positions listed on USAJobs were GS-13, or in a few cases listed with a salary of $70-$90k or so.
tallanvor 9y ago
Sorry, but signing up for a "tour of duty" at this time would basically mean working for and supporting Trump. My morals won't allow that, no matter how much good you think you can do there.
- smt88 9y ago
  I understand people who land on both sides of this. On one hand, you don't want to do support Trump. On the other hand, you don't want incompetent or malicious people supporting him instead. If Trump's goal is to shrink and destroy the credibility of the federal government, which it seems to be, then there's a good argument for the latter.
- PeachPlum 9y ago
  You mean "supporting America"
  - tallanvor 9y ago
    Nope. Working for some agencies could be considered supporting America, but the USDS is considered part of the Executive Office. 18F, which is part of the GSA, is something I could consider. But USDS is too close to Trump, Kushner, and the rest of Trump's swamp.
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    No. Serving at the pleasure of POTUS means Mr. Trump is your master, period.

kelnos 9y ago

Yes and no. USDS doesn't exactly have domain over all US gov't IT decisions, and aren't even involved or have any influence over a lot of things. Not to mention that the idea of taking a massive pay cut and having to move to DC holds no appeal to me.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
loeg 9y ago
I'm also turned off by the idea of switching jobs just to switch again in one year. Even if the pay cut and DC were palatable.

make3 9y ago

I can't imagine being a subordinate to Jared fucking Kushner for a full year

pimlottc 9y ago
USDS is not subordinate to Jared Kushner. We work with the Office of American Innovation on projects that align with our values, but ultimately we decide what projects to engage on. Which is pretty unique within the government.
- CalRobert 9y ago
  When Mr. Kushner issues a dictat that you are no longer to work on <potentially embarrassing issue for the administration>, you'll get a test of who ultimately decides what projects to engage on.
  - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
    So? I think the todo list more than long enough to keep USDS busy for four or eight years even if you strike all the potentially politically sensitive things from it.
- alistairSH 9y ago
  From the top of the USDS website: An official website of the Executive Office of the President

cookiecaper 9y ago

That seems like an exercise in futility. These are, at their core, political/management issues. Getting coders involved and misleading them into believing their code will do something to counteract the incentives that cause such behavior is just going to lead to a lot of very frustrated coders.

dragonwriter 9y ago
Right, the solution isn't to take a 1-year term at USDS, it's to go beyond coding to IT management while not losing respect for the people working the technology, building political connections, and getting appointed to positions like Department CIO for a government department. And that's not the solution so much as getting into position to really make an impact on the problem. And, yeah, it's not easy. Solving big institutional problems isn't. OTOH, a term at USDS may give you an opportunity to work around the fringes of the problem and grasp it's grand outline better. And the scale of government is such that a small improvement can be a big deal.

smsm42 9y ago

"You must be willing to move to Washington, DC". Oh well. Ever heard of videochat? I mean what exactly are they doing there that requires physical presence at DC?

pimlottc 9y ago
Going where the work is. Actually showing up at an agency and sitting down face to face with people that could use help buys a lot of credibility, especially in the public sector.
recursive 9y ago
Telecommuting employees are always harder to reach than the ones in the office. And yes, I've heard of video chat.

artursapek 9y ago

Wow, I haven't heard of USDS before! But I recently used a website they apparently built (uscis.gov) and remember being very impressed with it. It surpassed my expectations for a government website by far: sane password policy, material design, easy to use navigation, well designed application flow... Encouraging to see people with modern best practices in mind working for the government.

twunde 9y ago

I actually went to a talk recently by USDS and 18F. Really enjoyed it and seriously considering going to one of them as my next job. A few clarifications: * USDS limits employees to two consecutive years. * 18F, it's sister agency, does support remote work. They're more like consultants and switch between different agencies project by project.

erentz 9y ago

I would be very interested in doing this. Unfortunately I just checked their pay scales and... well, they’re pretty bad. Which to be honest surprises me because I’ve followed some of what USDS/18F do and they have talented folks.

pimlottc 9y ago
The pay is definitely below Bay Area standards, though it's quite good for government. Ultimately though the main draw is not the pay, it's the chance to use your tech skills to make a truly meaningful real-world impact on a large scale.
- shitlord 9y ago
  > Ultimately though the main draw is not the pay, it's the chance to use your tech skills to make a truly meaningful real-world impact on a large scale. I, personally, wouldn't value that opportunity at $100k+. This is really Congress' fault for having such an awful pay system.
alistairSH 9y ago
While I can easily find the GS scales, do any of you know how typical USDS or 18f positions map to the GS? Would a senior developer be a GS10 or GS15? GS15 would be competitive with DC software salaries (all benefits included). GS10, not so much.
- alistairSH 9y ago
  Answered my own question (sort of)... similar positions listed on USAJobs were GS-13, or in a few cases listed with a salary of $70-$90k or so.

tallanvor 9y ago

Sorry, but signing up for a "tour of duty" at this time would basically mean working for and supporting Trump. My morals won't allow that, no matter how much good you think you can do there.

smt88 9y ago
I understand people who land on both sides of this. On one hand, you don't want to do support Trump. On the other hand, you don't want incompetent or malicious people supporting him instead. If Trump's goal is to shrink and destroy the credibility of the federal government, which it seems to be, then there's a good argument for the latter.
PeachPlum 9y ago
You mean "supporting America"
- tallanvor 9y ago
  Nope. Working for some agencies could be considered supporting America, but the USDS is considered part of the Executive Office. 18F, which is part of the GSA, is something I could consider. But USDS is too close to Trump, Kushner, and the rest of Trump's swamp.
- Spooky23 9y ago
  No. Serving at the pleasure of POTUS means Mr. Trump is your master, period.