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Personal anecdote: My Singaporean Uncle got stage IV nose-cancer two years ago. He has two kids, a stay-at-home wife and a job that pays only middle income. Af

Personal anecdote: My Singaporean Uncle got stage IV nose-cancer two years ago. He has two kids, a stay-at-home wife and a job that pays only middle income. After a year of constant, weekly treatment by an assortment of doctors, he went into remission and paid in total less than one thousand dollars. My Singaporean ex-girlfriend had systemic organ issues over her life, that have alternately caused her seizures and blackouts. She was hospitalized for years at a time. Again, middle income family, with three kids and a stay-at-home-wife. Her family paid virtually nothing for 15+ years of treatment, and then the government paid for her university. Full-ride. Oh and they also paid her directly to attend classes. About S$1500 per semester, last time I checked. I have so many other great stories about my mother's country. For now, my sentiment is that Singapore's society, government and people, on balance, cares about each other. Not a power-hungry "all glory to the nation" care, or a brainless "let's give everyone everything for free" care, but a "these people are people like you and I. If I put on their shoes, how would I like to be treated?" care. In the United States, that basic, human empathy is in question.

MadSudaca 9y ago
It seems to me that it's unfair to compare a relatively small, new and homogeneous country such as Singapore with the states, and come to the conclusion that the USA lacks human empathy.
- mullen 9y ago
  > relatively small, new and homogeneous Not only is two of these completely wrong, what does that have to do with anything anyways? The United States is 50 small countries in one big country, there is no reason why a Singapore system could not be done here. The age of and diversity of a country have nothing to do with its healthcare system.
  - MadSudaca 9y ago
    > there is no reason why a Singapore system could not be done here. I'm not saying it's impossible for the US to have a better healthcare system, I'm saying that looking at what Singapour has and then concluding that people in the states lack empathy is not only unfair, but also lacking in perspective. > The United States is 50 small countries in one big country Not only are each of the states bigger than Singapour, but they're different to each other and at the same time they're not completely independent of each other. > The age of and diversity of a country have nothing to do with its healthcare system. A system that has been in place for a longer period of time, tends to become larger, more complex and harder to change. Moreover, a society that is more heterogeneous will have a harder time agreeing on an issue. Also in a democratic country, the larger the population, the more people you'll have to convince in order to change the status quo.
    - CryptoPunk 9y ago
      No idea why your comment has been downvoted. The individual US states do indeed have little independence in the crafting of their healthcare system, given the heavy involvement of the federal government in healthcare. And the federal government is a massively complex beast that is subject to intense special interest lobbying and is far less accountable to its constituents than Singapore's government. There's no comparison between a fractured government presiding over 300 million people and a single party government of 6 million.
      - cies 9y ago
        > intense special interest lobbying When can we stop to being so euphemistic and just call it corruption? I do not have to wear my PhD hat in economics to say that the relatively high cost care in the US pays for both the lobbyists' salaries and the now-even-higher dividends of the companies that choose to contract those lobbyists. Workers pay through the nose, rich folk get richer. Democracy subverted once again.
  - vacri 9y ago
    > The United States is 50 small countries in one big country I see this sentiment touted a lot, but is there really that much difference between a Connecticuter and Rhode Islander, or a Mississipian and an Alabamian? A North Dakotan and a South Dakotan?
    - brailsafe 9y ago
      I'd wager that the somewhat arbitrary state divisions and the length of time they've been around have little to no cultural or biologically significant differences. Differences between populations in physical geographies and regions yes, but not because of the political boundaries unless you're referring to things that depend solely on political differences.
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  It's not compared to Singapore, it's compared to most of the western world. (As a US citizen, here.)
ValentineC 9y ago
> Her family paid virtually nothing for 15+ years of treatment, and then the government paid for her university. Full-ride. Oh and they also paid her directly to attend classes. About S$1500 per semester, last time I checked. Singaporean here. How does one enjoy such education benefits? I haven't heard of them. > My Singaporean Uncle got stage IV nose-cancer two years ago. […] After a year of constant, weekly treatment by an assortment of doctors, he went into remission and paid in total less than one thousand dollars. An MRI here will cost between 700 to 1,000 dollars, even at subsidised hospitals [1]. I fail to see how a year's worth of cancer treatment would be that cheap. We have mandatory hospitalisation and surgical insurance (MediShield Life [2]), but with the various co-payments and deductibles, a procedure would still cost anywhere between $2,000 to $4,000. [1] https://www.moh.gov.sg/content/moh_web/home/pressRoom/pressRoomItemRelease/2005/radiology_charges_in_singapore.html https://www.moh.gov.sg/content/moh_web/home/pressRoom/pressR... [2] https://www.medishieldlife.sg https://www.medishieldlife.sg
- hitekker 9y ago
  She went into NIE, did the two-year program, got the diploma, and then went on to do the four-year program to get the full degree. Mind you, it isn't all sunshine and roses, since in return for the government paying for basically everything, she has to work more than a few years in the MOE public school system. Although they do get paid, you make much more money as a private tutor with credentials so people fresh from the degree program are always eager to get on out. Regarding my Uncle, this is what he told me when I asked at the last CNY, but I can accept if he was off by a few thousand.
  - ValentineC 9y ago
    > Mind you, it isn't all sunshine and roses, since in return for the government paying for basically everything, she has to work more than a few years in the MOE public school system. It should be noted that such "full-ride" scholarships are generally reserved for the top students in a cohort (scoring at least, I believe, AAB at A Level), and are not available to all citizens (as compared to EU citizens who enjoy heavily-subsidised tuition and student loans). On the other hand, Singapore has a tuition grant available for all international students who are admitted into a public university [1], with the stipulation that they work for a Singapore company for at least three years after they graduate. (This is aimed at trying to get "smart" people to settle down in Singapore.) Singapore's system heavily favours strong academic potential (the government's idea of "meritocracy" — which is starting to show its cracks [2]) over egalitarianism. There are sadly no "student loan" schemes to allow for independent living. [1] https://tgonline.moe.gov.sg/tgis/normal/studentViewTuitionGrantSubsidyInfo.action https://tgonline.moe.gov.sg/tgis/normal/studentViewTuitionGr... [2] https://www.theonlinecitizen.com/2017/09/28/dr-chee-soon-juan-the-pap-failing-elitist-model/ https://www.theonlinecitizen.com/2017/09/28/dr-chee-soon-jua...
agumonkey 9y ago
Not only the US. I'd say the western world is way too obsessed about structure and institutions. We forgot why we're here. I never really paid attention to singapore but I'll surely do now.
- vacri 9y ago
  The stories are somewhat similar to SG in UK, France, Can, Aus, and NZ. I wouldn't tar the rest of the western world with the US's experience. David Sedaris talked nearly two decades ago of having a treatment at a French hospital, and finding it hard to get someone to even accept payment. Mind you, he also liked that he could smoke in the hospital.
  - agumonkey 9y ago
    It's true but it's slipping toward more and more accountability and less about human relationships.
sheepmullet 9y ago
> For now, my sentiment is that Singapore's society, government and people, on balance, cares about each other. Singaporeans happily balance rights with responsibilities. It's a more collective outlook. > In the United States, that basic, human empathy is in question. I find it is the opposite. There is far too much "empathy" in the US. This means that it's impossible to take the middle ground that the average joe can actually support. Each path becomes all or nothing. For example it's politically impossible in the US to have free healthcare only for non-smoking healthy weight individuals. But I don't want to pay for an obese persons knee surgery. And I know people don't want to pay for the brain damage I might get from doing boxing.
- chrisbennet 9y ago
  Maybe it's not just a lack of empathy. Maybe it's selfishness thing with some rationalization on top.
  - sheepmullet 9y ago
    Are Singaporeans less selfish? Are Swedish people? Etc etc. I don't think selfishness or lack of empathy are responsible for the state of US healthcare. I've personally found Americans are very welcoming. Especially in the south.
    - mr_overalls 9y ago
      Speaking as a Southerner, our friendliness is quite temporary, superficial, and cliquish. Many Southerners are friendly toward 1) visitors, and 2) people in their immediate social circle. When the scope broadens to people of different races, nationalities, or political/sexual orientations, the friendliness quickly fades. Growing up in a small Mississippi city in the 1980s & 90s, I saw a small but steady influx of transplants from other parts of the country who came to work our booming aluminum siding factory. They were all received warmly at first, and seemed bowled over by the attention. But as soon as they demonstrated their alien-ness by attending the wrong church (or being nonreligious), or heaven forbid, commenting on racial or political issues, the welcome mat was pulled back. They'd last a year or two at most, and then transfer somewhere else. And people would gossip about the funny Yankees after they left. "Andy's wife was a real loony-tunes," they'd say. "Told her Sunday school group she didn't believe abortion was wrong. And you know what they said about her husband. [whispering] That he was a pervert!" Sad, really.

MadSudaca 9y ago

It seems to me that it's unfair to compare a relatively small, new and homogeneous country such as Singapore with the states, and come to the conclusion that the USA lacks human empathy.

mullen 9y ago
> relatively small, new and homogeneous Not only is two of these completely wrong, what does that have to do with anything anyways? The United States is 50 small countries in one big country, there is no reason why a Singapore system could not be done here. The age of and diversity of a country have nothing to do with its healthcare system.
- MadSudaca 9y ago
  > there is no reason why a Singapore system could not be done here. I'm not saying it's impossible for the US to have a better healthcare system, I'm saying that looking at what Singapour has and then concluding that people in the states lack empathy is not only unfair, but also lacking in perspective. > The United States is 50 small countries in one big country Not only are each of the states bigger than Singapour, but they're different to each other and at the same time they're not completely independent of each other. > The age of and diversity of a country have nothing to do with its healthcare system. A system that has been in place for a longer period of time, tends to become larger, more complex and harder to change. Moreover, a society that is more heterogeneous will have a harder time agreeing on an issue. Also in a democratic country, the larger the population, the more people you'll have to convince in order to change the status quo.
  - CryptoPunk 9y ago
    No idea why your comment has been downvoted. The individual US states do indeed have little independence in the crafting of their healthcare system, given the heavy involvement of the federal government in healthcare. And the federal government is a massively complex beast that is subject to intense special interest lobbying and is far less accountable to its constituents than Singapore's government. There's no comparison between a fractured government presiding over 300 million people and a single party government of 6 million.
    - cies 9y ago
      > intense special interest lobbying When can we stop to being so euphemistic and just call it corruption? I do not have to wear my PhD hat in economics to say that the relatively high cost care in the US pays for both the lobbyists' salaries and the now-even-higher dividends of the companies that choose to contract those lobbyists. Workers pay through the nose, rich folk get richer. Democracy subverted once again.
- vacri 9y ago
  > The United States is 50 small countries in one big country I see this sentiment touted a lot, but is there really that much difference between a Connecticuter and Rhode Islander, or a Mississipian and an Alabamian? A North Dakotan and a South Dakotan?
  - brailsafe 9y ago
    I'd wager that the somewhat arbitrary state divisions and the length of time they've been around have little to no cultural or biologically significant differences. Differences between populations in physical geographies and regions yes, but not because of the political boundaries unless you're referring to things that depend solely on political differences.
PhasmaFelis 9y ago
It's not compared to Singapore, it's compared to most of the western world. (As a US citizen, here.)

ValentineC 9y ago

> Her family paid virtually nothing for 15+ years of treatment, and then the government paid for her university. Full-ride. Oh and they also paid her directly to attend classes. About S$1500 per semester, last time I checked. Singaporean here. How does one enjoy such education benefits? I haven't heard of them. > My Singaporean Uncle got stage IV nose-cancer two years ago. […] After a year of constant, weekly treatment by an assortment of doctors, he went into remission and paid in total less than one thousand dollars. An MRI here will cost between 700 to 1,000 dollars, even at subsidised hospitals [1]. I fail to see how a year's worth of cancer treatment would be that cheap. We have mandatory hospitalisation and surgical insurance (MediShield Life [2]), but with the various co-payments and deductibles, a procedure would still cost anywhere between $2,000 to $4,000. [1] https://www.moh.gov.sg/content/moh_web/home/pressRoom/pressRoomItemRelease/2005/radiology_charges_in_singapore.html https://www.moh.gov.sg/content/moh_web/home/pressRoom/pressR... [2] https://www.medishieldlife.sg https://www.medishieldlife.sg

hitekker 9y ago
She went into NIE, did the two-year program, got the diploma, and then went on to do the four-year program to get the full degree. Mind you, it isn't all sunshine and roses, since in return for the government paying for basically everything, she has to work more than a few years in the MOE public school system. Although they do get paid, you make much more money as a private tutor with credentials so people fresh from the degree program are always eager to get on out. Regarding my Uncle, this is what he told me when I asked at the last CNY, but I can accept if he was off by a few thousand.
- ValentineC 9y ago
  > Mind you, it isn't all sunshine and roses, since in return for the government paying for basically everything, she has to work more than a few years in the MOE public school system. It should be noted that such "full-ride" scholarships are generally reserved for the top students in a cohort (scoring at least, I believe, AAB at A Level), and are not available to all citizens (as compared to EU citizens who enjoy heavily-subsidised tuition and student loans). On the other hand, Singapore has a tuition grant available for all international students who are admitted into a public university [1], with the stipulation that they work for a Singapore company for at least three years after they graduate. (This is aimed at trying to get "smart" people to settle down in Singapore.) Singapore's system heavily favours strong academic potential (the government's idea of "meritocracy" — which is starting to show its cracks [2]) over egalitarianism. There are sadly no "student loan" schemes to allow for independent living. [1] https://tgonline.moe.gov.sg/tgis/normal/studentViewTuitionGrantSubsidyInfo.action https://tgonline.moe.gov.sg/tgis/normal/studentViewTuitionGr... [2] https://www.theonlinecitizen.com/2017/09/28/dr-chee-soon-juan-the-pap-failing-elitist-model/ https://www.theonlinecitizen.com/2017/09/28/dr-chee-soon-jua...

agumonkey 9y ago

Not only the US. I'd say the western world is way too obsessed about structure and institutions. We forgot why we're here. I never really paid attention to singapore but I'll surely do now.

vacri 9y ago
The stories are somewhat similar to SG in UK, France, Can, Aus, and NZ. I wouldn't tar the rest of the western world with the US's experience. David Sedaris talked nearly two decades ago of having a treatment at a French hospital, and finding it hard to get someone to even accept payment. Mind you, he also liked that he could smoke in the hospital.
- agumonkey 9y ago
  It's true but it's slipping toward more and more accountability and less about human relationships.

sheepmullet 9y ago

> For now, my sentiment is that Singapore's society, government and people, on balance, cares about each other. Singaporeans happily balance rights with responsibilities. It's a more collective outlook. > In the United States, that basic, human empathy is in question. I find it is the opposite. There is far too much "empathy" in the US. This means that it's impossible to take the middle ground that the average joe can actually support. Each path becomes all or nothing. For example it's politically impossible in the US to have free healthcare only for non-smoking healthy weight individuals. But I don't want to pay for an obese persons knee surgery. And I know people don't want to pay for the brain damage I might get from doing boxing.

chrisbennet 9y ago
Maybe it's not just a lack of empathy. Maybe it's selfishness thing with some rationalization on top.
- sheepmullet 9y ago
  Are Singaporeans less selfish? Are Swedish people? Etc etc. I don't think selfishness or lack of empathy are responsible for the state of US healthcare. I've personally found Americans are very welcoming. Especially in the south.
  - mr_overalls 9y ago
    Speaking as a Southerner, our friendliness is quite temporary, superficial, and cliquish. Many Southerners are friendly toward 1) visitors, and 2) people in their immediate social circle. When the scope broadens to people of different races, nationalities, or political/sexual orientations, the friendliness quickly fades. Growing up in a small Mississippi city in the 1980s & 90s, I saw a small but steady influx of transplants from other parts of the country who came to work our booming aluminum siding factory. They were all received warmly at first, and seemed bowled over by the attention. But as soon as they demonstrated their alien-ness by attending the wrong church (or being nonreligious), or heaven forbid, commenting on racial or political issues, the welcome mat was pulled back. They'd last a year or two at most, and then transfer somewhere else. And people would gossip about the funny Yankees after they left. "Andy's wife was a real loony-tunes," they'd say. "Told her Sunday school group she didn't believe abortion was wrong. And you know what they said about her husband. [whispering] That he was a pervert!" Sad, really.