4 ms·

You're asking people who are freaking 17 years-old to have excellent decision making skills and awareness of what industry will be in half a decade when you get

You're asking people who are freaking 17 years-old to have excellent decision making skills and awareness of what industry will be in half a decade when you get out. WHO IS THAT SMART? WHO IS THAT AWARE? I just got lucky cause I liked computers, was nerdy, and did decently on exams. I assume most other programmers are the same. I didn't know anything about SV (grew up in rural Kentucky) - I didn't know what the industry was like. I just believed Google when it said I would get a job. Don't act like we all thought very hard and carefully, meticulously planned out whether the thing we enjoyed would be profitable. Most people were 17. If you were 17 or 18 when you decided to go to college, it probably wasn't a very well-thought out decision. The fact that you look at such students with such ire and derision for wanting a better life and working for that is so heartbreaking and pathetic. There are much more productive places to direct your malice than the students themselves. You don't have to feel bad for people who made worse decisions than you. Congratulations, people make bad decisions. It's more productive to ask ourselves, "Why?" and "How can we prevent this" and "What can these people do now" rather than just getting all "old man yells at cloud" about "suburban-liberals". Lemme tell you real quick. I know people from every end of the damn political spectrum in this situation, so whatever political image you're projecting onto these students is just nonsense. It isn't a "liberal snowflake" or "feminist" problem or whatever else whacked out narrative you have in your head. The only conclusion you've come to is that teenagers are make bad decisions. A lot of students of this generation felt that their only way to success was through college. It isn't because they're dumb. It isn't because they're "lazy". It's because they made the wrong decision. Let's all try and be a little more productive and ask "Now what?".

maehwasu 9y ago
As soon as you become a theater major, you lose the right to the "I just was trying to make more money and have a better life" narrative.
- SolaceQuantum 9y ago
  If at 17 someone was informed among their group that they were he best theatre students in their peer group? Then even in college they are really good at theatre and are mediocre to bad at more “marketable” skills? Do they deserve poverty for not knowing at 17 that even after 4 years or more of education the standard is more like 20+ years of education? Or that making it is not acting skill but networking skill? At 17 people will try to do what they are best at and play to their strengths. That’s really reasonable at 17.
- spaceseaman 9y ago
  So your argument is that making a dumb decision invalidates anyones ability to feel sympathy for you? It's not a narrative. It's just common human decency. WHY THE MALICE? They made a bad decision - great: you get to feel superior. ... Are you done yet? Cause that person didn't just disappear after you got done feeling all high and mighty. As someone who has know quite a few theatre, dance and other such "dumb majors". I actually know quite a few who've become very successful working in their field. They may not be actresses or professional dancers, but they work close enough to the field that they feel their degree is useful. Many also chose to work outside that field in other decently paying jobs (technical writers, editors, etc). Why do you feel the need to just act as if it's hopeless and throw these students out? Is your need to feel superior that significant?
- mjmahone17 9y ago
  Why? If you are an actor on Broadway, your minimum pay is $1,861 per week[0]. So if you're working 40 weeks per year, you'd be making, as a minimum, $74,000. This is higher than many teachers' salaries, and in line with many other professionals. Plus there's a very high (if very narrow) ceiling on those salaries. You can make the argument "well most actors never make it as a broadway actor". While true, do most software developers make it as a Google developer? And how likely is it that someone whose talent lies in acting is also talented enough to do well at software development? Sometimes, you should play to your strengths, even if the relative bargaining power of your strengths are not as strong as someone else's strengths. That doesn't mean you're not following the best path to "have a better life". [0] http://www.actorsequity.org/agreements/agreements.asp?code=001 http://www.actorsequity.org/agreements/agreements.asp?code=0...
  - ng12 9y ago
    I don't think you've met many professional actors. Someone with a role on Broadway, even as a supporting actor with no dialog, is considered to have "made it". An Off-Broadway or regional theater role pays something more like $500 a week. And even if you're good enough to land these gigs there's very limited stability as shows/casts rotate. Sure, not everyone works at Google, but the people who don't can still land jobs at a million different companies for a living salary. An actor who's not landing roles is working a survival job (waiter, barista, etc) so they can afford to spend time auditioning. And remember we're talking about somebody on the verge of homelessness -- they're going to have to compete with actors from wealthy families who paid for their rent and a degree from Juilliard.
  - gertef 9y ago
    If you're good enough to act on Broadway, you're good enough to be a salesperson.
iopuy 9y ago
I'd just like to point out that parenting can play a huge role in this process. If your parents encourage critical thinking and act as sounding boards to the proverbial "what do I want to be when I grow up?" then yes, a lot of these issues can be foreseen. E.g. "Dad I think I want to be a doctor when I grow up." "That sounds like an excellent choice son, be prepared to spent a lot of time and money in school? You know we can try to help you pay for that but cannot afford it all" "Dad I think I want to be a theater major in school." "That's a wonderful passion son, how do you plan on using your degree after school?"
- caffodian 9y ago
  Parents would have to be equipped to be able to answer these questions in the way you suggest though. That seems a bit of a stretch if they haven't been educated similarly themselves
- eli_gottlieb 9y ago
  You know that if you actually ask, "Daddy, what are the career paths that minimize my education expenses while maximizing my expected income and security over the next 40 years?", the best answer is going to be something like, "being rich and well-connected", right?
ng12 9y ago
> I just believed Google when it said I would get a job. If you Google "theater major" the top result is entitled "Worst College Majors for Your Career". I don't think even think she got that far. Oddly enough, I think you and OP are in agreement despite the opposing tones. We don't believe high school students can handle access to alcohol but we expect them to make incredibly finalizing, expensive decisions regarding college. First things first, the "just go to college" meme must die.
- spaceseaman 9y ago
  > I think you and OP are in agreement despite the opposing tones. I agree, but I think his tone is the more important thing to discuss here. Everyone is agreement that the "just go to college" idea is long dead (even though I'm sure this thread is gonna rehash it just for the kicks), but this attitude of feeling all morally superior to people who made well-intentioned shitty decisions? It's annoying as hell, and completely unnecessary. It does nothing but make all the programmers in a room feel all warm and giddy for their "wise, career decision" (aka lucky guess that aligned with my skills and interests at 17). It's just so lame, unproductive, and plain mean. What's the point?
spc476 9y ago
Some of us were. I graduated high school back in the 80s, so it was before the Internet was public, and way before things like Google existed. I wanted to be a film maker, or a writer, or a cartoonist, but I knew back then that it was a matter of not only talent, but luck. I also had an interest in computers, so I thought I would get a degree in Comp Sci as a fall back in case my other careers didn't work out. Good thing too, because the movie career didn't pan out (not for lack of trying---twice) and I never did get started on the writing career (another good thing---my best friend is an author and barely makes any money at it) or cartooning. Now, how to prevent this from happening? Perhaps telling high school students that getting a degree doesn't mean a job? You have a better chance at a decent job with a STEM degree than without? That college is just too expensive? That college loans cannot be discharged with a bankruptcy?
eighthnate 9y ago
> I just got lucky cause I liked computers, was nerdy, and did decently on exams. Exactly. Not only that I had a benefit of having a computer in high school when almost nobody else I knew had one. I can act like what coding is magical or special or I was "smart" to be born at the exact right to and get into programming at the exact right time, but a lot of it is just dumb luck. OP is going overboard with his cynicism and bitterness. There are plenty of smart people who go into literature, philosophy, theater, etc. And frankly, I personally have just as much respect for that as an engineer/programmer/etc and I think they are as needed and important. There is this myth that programmers are "smart". We really aren't smarter than engineers, english major, teachers, etc. We just were asocial enough to sit in front of our computers for hours and have the luxury of owning a computer at a relatively young age.
seabird 9y ago
I'm not asking for excellent decision making skills. I'm not even asking great, or even good decision making skills, for that matter. I'm just asking for a young adult to not approach an investment in education in the worst way possible. A part of you has to be kidding when you ask "who is that smart," or "who is that aware," or at least I hope so. If you are 17 and cannot understand that some jobs are in higher demand than others, you have lived a very disconnected life (generally symptomatic of being a well-to-do suburbanite). If you are 17 and do not realize that this world will constantly need huge amounts of engineers, HVAC technicians, programmers, diesel mechanics, and the like for the foreseeable future, you have spent almost 20 years somehow ignoring the wonders of the modern world around you. I had pretty much settled on working in either software development or network engineering by the time I was 13. The IBEW would be my next stop if that didn't pan out, but I never let it come close to that. I know multiple people that began developing a passion for their field around the same age as I did. I know many more people (some from unforgiving upbringings) that graduated high school, realized that they needed to make a move fast, and picked a growing field that they knew there was money in. It isn't hard, but you have to accept that you will be rewarded for committing to something in-demand quickly and decisively, even if you would rather be a rock star. You're taking my mention of suburban-liberalism and running somewhere completely different with it. My point wasn't that college is some "feminist snowflake" plot to dupe the unsuspecting young adults of the US. What I'm trying to say is that it takes a special sort of lifestyle to make blanket claims about how any and all education will lead you to success. Tell an impoverished resident of an inner city how much you've spent on a theater degree and they will ask why you didn't spend it on immediate necessities. Tell a rural resident how much you spent on your theater degree and they will ask why you didn't enlist, become a lineman, a millwright, or a nurse. Only somebody who hasn't experienced the urban jungle or the desolation of the agriculture and manufacturing industries can sincerely act like you can get any old college degree and have it be worth your time and money. It requires you to be progressive enough to at least superficially care, but naive and disconnected enough to not understand the reality. I don't look at students wanting a better life and working toward it with ire and derision. I am fairly irked by grown adults wanting a better life, being mentally mature enough to understand what that takes, doing something else, and wondering how this all could have possibly happened. Our "what now" is basically to tell these students to cut their losses and go through the whole process again, this time in a field that will net them decent work, while their classmates have a six year jump on them. This is a future we can avoid if we stop acting like every degree will lead to viable work.

maehwasu 9y ago

As soon as you become a theater major, you lose the right to the "I just was trying to make more money and have a better life" narrative.

SolaceQuantum 9y ago
If at 17 someone was informed among their group that they were he best theatre students in their peer group? Then even in college they are really good at theatre and are mediocre to bad at more “marketable” skills? Do they deserve poverty for not knowing at 17 that even after 4 years or more of education the standard is more like 20+ years of education? Or that making it is not acting skill but networking skill? At 17 people will try to do what they are best at and play to their strengths. That’s really reasonable at 17.
spaceseaman 9y ago
So your argument is that making a dumb decision invalidates anyones ability to feel sympathy for you? It's not a narrative. It's just common human decency. WHY THE MALICE? They made a bad decision - great: you get to feel superior. ... Are you done yet? Cause that person didn't just disappear after you got done feeling all high and mighty. As someone who has know quite a few theatre, dance and other such "dumb majors". I actually know quite a few who've become very successful working in their field. They may not be actresses or professional dancers, but they work close enough to the field that they feel their degree is useful. Many also chose to work outside that field in other decently paying jobs (technical writers, editors, etc). Why do you feel the need to just act as if it's hopeless and throw these students out? Is your need to feel superior that significant?
mjmahone17 9y ago
Why? If you are an actor on Broadway, your minimum pay is $1,861 per week[0]. So if you're working 40 weeks per year, you'd be making, as a minimum, $74,000. This is higher than many teachers' salaries, and in line with many other professionals. Plus there's a very high (if very narrow) ceiling on those salaries. You can make the argument "well most actors never make it as a broadway actor". While true, do most software developers make it as a Google developer? And how likely is it that someone whose talent lies in acting is also talented enough to do well at software development? Sometimes, you should play to your strengths, even if the relative bargaining power of your strengths are not as strong as someone else's strengths. That doesn't mean you're not following the best path to "have a better life". [0] http://www.actorsequity.org/agreements/agreements.asp?code=001 http://www.actorsequity.org/agreements/agreements.asp?code=0...
- ng12 9y ago
  I don't think you've met many professional actors. Someone with a role on Broadway, even as a supporting actor with no dialog, is considered to have "made it". An Off-Broadway or regional theater role pays something more like $500 a week. And even if you're good enough to land these gigs there's very limited stability as shows/casts rotate. Sure, not everyone works at Google, but the people who don't can still land jobs at a million different companies for a living salary. An actor who's not landing roles is working a survival job (waiter, barista, etc) so they can afford to spend time auditioning. And remember we're talking about somebody on the verge of homelessness -- they're going to have to compete with actors from wealthy families who paid for their rent and a degree from Juilliard.
- gertef 9y ago
  If you're good enough to act on Broadway, you're good enough to be a salesperson.

iopuy 9y ago

I'd just like to point out that parenting can play a huge role in this process. If your parents encourage critical thinking and act as sounding boards to the proverbial "what do I want to be when I grow up?" then yes, a lot of these issues can be foreseen. E.g. "Dad I think I want to be a doctor when I grow up." "That sounds like an excellent choice son, be prepared to spent a lot of time and money in school? You know we can try to help you pay for that but cannot afford it all" "Dad I think I want to be a theater major in school." "That's a wonderful passion son, how do you plan on using your degree after school?"

caffodian 9y ago
Parents would have to be equipped to be able to answer these questions in the way you suggest though. That seems a bit of a stretch if they haven't been educated similarly themselves
eli_gottlieb 9y ago
You know that if you actually ask, "Daddy, what are the career paths that minimize my education expenses while maximizing my expected income and security over the next 40 years?", the best answer is going to be something like, "being rich and well-connected", right?

ng12 9y ago

> I just believed Google when it said I would get a job. If you Google "theater major" the top result is entitled "Worst College Majors for Your Career". I don't think even think she got that far. Oddly enough, I think you and OP are in agreement despite the opposing tones. We don't believe high school students can handle access to alcohol but we expect them to make incredibly finalizing, expensive decisions regarding college. First things first, the "just go to college" meme must die.

spaceseaman 9y ago
> I think you and OP are in agreement despite the opposing tones. I agree, but I think his tone is the more important thing to discuss here. Everyone is agreement that the "just go to college" idea is long dead (even though I'm sure this thread is gonna rehash it just for the kicks), but this attitude of feeling all morally superior to people who made well-intentioned shitty decisions? It's annoying as hell, and completely unnecessary. It does nothing but make all the programmers in a room feel all warm and giddy for their "wise, career decision" (aka lucky guess that aligned with my skills and interests at 17). It's just so lame, unproductive, and plain mean. What's the point?

spc476 9y ago

Some of us were. I graduated high school back in the 80s, so it was before the Internet was public, and way before things like Google existed. I wanted to be a film maker, or a writer, or a cartoonist, but I knew back then that it was a matter of not only talent, but luck. I also had an interest in computers, so I thought I would get a degree in Comp Sci as a fall back in case my other careers didn't work out. Good thing too, because the movie career didn't pan out (not for lack of trying---twice) and I never did get started on the writing career (another good thing---my best friend is an author and barely makes any money at it) or cartooning. Now, how to prevent this from happening? Perhaps telling high school students that getting a degree doesn't mean a job? You have a better chance at a decent job with a STEM degree than without? That college is just too expensive? That college loans cannot be discharged with a bankruptcy?

eighthnate 9y ago

> I just got lucky cause I liked computers, was nerdy, and did decently on exams. Exactly. Not only that I had a benefit of having a computer in high school when almost nobody else I knew had one. I can act like what coding is magical or special or I was "smart" to be born at the exact right to and get into programming at the exact right time, but a lot of it is just dumb luck. OP is going overboard with his cynicism and bitterness. There are plenty of smart people who go into literature, philosophy, theater, etc. And frankly, I personally have just as much respect for that as an engineer/programmer/etc and I think they are as needed and important. There is this myth that programmers are "smart". We really aren't smarter than engineers, english major, teachers, etc. We just were asocial enough to sit in front of our computers for hours and have the luxury of owning a computer at a relatively young age.

seabird 9y ago

I'm not asking for excellent decision making skills. I'm not even asking great, or even good decision making skills, for that matter. I'm just asking for a young adult to not approach an investment in education in the worst way possible. A part of you has to be kidding when you ask "who is that smart," or "who is that aware," or at least I hope so. If you are 17 and cannot understand that some jobs are in higher demand than others, you have lived a very disconnected life (generally symptomatic of being a well-to-do suburbanite). If you are 17 and do not realize that this world will constantly need huge amounts of engineers, HVAC technicians, programmers, diesel mechanics, and the like for the foreseeable future, you have spent almost 20 years somehow ignoring the wonders of the modern world around you. I had pretty much settled on working in either software development or network engineering by the time I was 13. The IBEW would be my next stop if that didn't pan out, but I never let it come close to that. I know multiple people that began developing a passion for their field around the same age as I did. I know many more people (some from unforgiving upbringings) that graduated high school, realized that they needed to make a move fast, and picked a growing field that they knew there was money in. It isn't hard, but you have to accept that you will be rewarded for committing to something in-demand quickly and decisively, even if you would rather be a rock star. You're taking my mention of suburban-liberalism and running somewhere completely different with it. My point wasn't that college is some "feminist snowflake" plot to dupe the unsuspecting young adults of the US. What I'm trying to say is that it takes a special sort of lifestyle to make blanket claims about how any and all education will lead you to success. Tell an impoverished resident of an inner city how much you've spent on a theater degree and they will ask why you didn't spend it on immediate necessities. Tell a rural resident how much you spent on your theater degree and they will ask why you didn't enlist, become a lineman, a millwright, or a nurse. Only somebody who hasn't experienced the urban jungle or the desolation of the agriculture and manufacturing industries can sincerely act like you can get any old college degree and have it be worth your time and money. It requires you to be progressive enough to at least superficially care, but naive and disconnected enough to not understand the reality. I don't look at students wanting a better life and working toward it with ire and derision. I am fairly irked by grown adults wanting a better life, being mentally mature enough to understand what that takes, doing something else, and wondering how this all could have possibly happened. Our "what now" is basically to tell these students to cut their losses and go through the whole process again, this time in a field that will net them decent work, while their classmates have a six year jump on them. This is a future we can avoid if we stop acting like every degree will lead to viable work.