7 ms·

> IANAL but If you want to fix this get your parents to sign a power of attorney over to you. If you are said parent, which of the kids do you absolutely trust

by Swizec 9y ago

> IANAL but If you want to fix this get your parents to sign a power of attorney over to you. If you are said parent, which of the kids do you absolutely trust to never ever screw you over no matter how much incentive there is and no matter how hard a times they fall on? That's what I'm worried about when getting old(er). You give your trust to an amazing person in their 40's with the best of lives. They'll take care of you. Then they fall on hard times 10 years later and oh hey look they have power of attorney over all this money maybe if they help themselves juuuuuust a little bit ... When I was 10 my dad drained my and my sister's savings[1] account that way. Just a little, just to get over the hump in his business, he'll put it all back later of course. 20 years later and afaik he still hasn't. Having access to other people's money when you have none of your own is terrible. I don't know if I'd trust myself with that, let alone somebody else. [1] of course it wasn't really our savings, think of it more like a college fund my parents started for each kid when they were born

no_excuse_ 9y ago
> When I was 10 my dad drained my and my sister's savings[1] account that way. Is this a typo? At least in my state minors cannot own anything -- their guardians do. Therefore it would have never been yours to begin with. Even then, who is 10 and has enough money to float a business?
- jackvalentine 9y ago
  It's fairly common around the world that minors can and do own bank accounts - usually tied to a guardian but the money is nominally 'theirs'. My 3yo niece has about 2000AUD in her bank account, from various gifts through her short life so far.
- Swizec 9y ago
  > Even then, who is 10 and has enough money to float a business? I don't know how much was in there, but say my parents were putting in $10 every month. By the time I was 10 that would be around $1200. In a country where median income back then was probably around $15000 that's 1 month's salary. Plenty to tie one over when they're low on cash and see a paid invoice just around the corner. I'm sure he did it with the best of intentions and with full intent to put it back in just a short while. My point is that when you are strapped for funds and you have full legal access to somebody else's funds, it can be hard to resist.
  - tlear 9y ago
    This is why I am not putting anything into my kids "savings". They are not their saving they are mine. Period. If for tax reason I have to do it I will never tell them about it. Of course he should have used that money, it was his. Not to mention you most likely benefitted quite a bit from his business surviving. If that concept is not something he explained to you then he failed as parent in other ways.
    - Swizec 9y ago
      Well it also lead (among other things) to my parent’s divorce and me and my sister growing up in a single parent home with a dad who claims he’s too broke to pay child support. Afaik he still owes my mum most of it and has turned to skirting the law to get out of debt collector crosshairs. The problem isn’t that he took the money. The problem is how he did it (unilaterally and without discussion with other people whose money it also was) And his business did not survive so I didn’t benefit from that either. So yeah, how was that good for me again?
x0x0 9y ago
The alternative is my grandmother with severe alzheimer's. In her mid 70s and in very poor health, someone sold her a 30 year annuity for the vast majority of her savings. It took the family a year in court to undo the transaction.
gertef 9y ago
But really, what's wrong with that? Why is someone entitled to control accumulated wealth after they lose their faculty? Most parents live for their children. If a parent doesn't want to give wealth to their children, that's fine; the parent can give wealth to their grandchildren in trust, or anyone on the world they choose.
- pc86 9y ago
  This is disgusting. It's their assets and it should be handled in the way(s) they determined when they had full control of their faculties. Anything short of that is fraud, theft, and saying "what's wrong with that?" to someone just stealing money from a parent is horrible.
  - blackbagboys 9y ago
    This is ridiculous property-rights absolutism. Obviously it would wrong to leave them completely bereft and unable to support themselves, but people with compromised mental faculties lose plenty of other rights; there's no reason they get to sit like a senile dragon on a hoard of accumulated wealth.
    - kbos87 9y ago
      Are you serious? That wealth belongs to them until they make a sound decision to part with it. If that means they’ve decided to purchase something and haven’t been deceived, great. If that means they pass it on to someone of their choosing when they die, that’s their right too. When someone takes advantage of their weakened mental state, that is just plain reprehensible.
    - Geekette 9y ago
      "This is ridiculous property-rights absolutism. ... there's no reason they get to sit like a senile dragon on a hoard of accumulated wealth." WTF. It isn't ridiculous to respect the fact that unless explicitly given to you, other people’s property is NOT yours and this applies to your parents too. It’s amazing that this has to be disputed at all but it explains why one sees some people with families going beyond will-making to planning for divestiture of their wealth to occur while alive later on.
lumberjack 9y ago
I think your problem is with your mentality of "my money" when it comes to you vs your children. I cannot even understand that to be honest. In cultures where children are expected to take care of their aging parents, it is pretty much a foregone conclusion that the child who ends up taking care of them gets to inherit most of the estate.
- Swizec 9y ago
  > I think your problem is with your mentality of "my money" when it comes to you vs your children. I cannot even understand that to be honest. Why? It's one thing when they're children, sure if I had kids I'd do everything for them (which is why I don't have them). But when they're in their 40s or 50s and still trying to mooch off me? Screw that.
  - charlesdm 9y ago
    "Mooch off you"? My grandfather isn't in the best shape (he was diagnosed with alzheimer's last year) and I want to make sure the few years he has left, he can enjoy them (even if he won't remember everything). My mom has one brother, and I'm an only child, so I will (probably) indirectly inherit a decent amount of his wealth. And yet, I couldn't care less. Yes, an inheritance is nice to receive. But I'd give it up in a heartbeat if it meant having a person you love around for another 10+ years.
    - caseysoftware 9y ago
      That's awful and I'm sorry.
      - charlesdm 9y ago
        Thanks. :( That's life I guess -- you play the hand you're dealt.
    - Swizec 9y ago
      > "Mooch off you"? Yes, as per my original post where I specifically said the hypothetical person in question takes the money for their own needs, not for the needs of the person whom they have power of attorney over.
ptero 9y ago
> If you are said parent, which of the kids do you absolutely trust to never ever screw you over no matter how much incentive there is and no matter how hard a times they fall on? From the purely optimization viewpoint your "never ever" is too strict. This just has to be less likely and/or less damaging (however you want to choose a utility function) than losing your marbles and getting into a professional con artist's net. Everyone's case is different, but I personally would never take my parents money for my own goals; same for my siblings and their kids. Maybe it is just my experience, but I grew up in a strong culture of "kids first"; parents are always sacrificing something for kids and that was seen as normal. If my parents had money and knew that my kids were hungry I have absolutely no doubt that they would push it to feed their grandkids before I ask. Not to criticize your post (I think you are being unfairly downvoted), but mentally running a check on how would I feel today if I were in my 80s, totally incompetent, and my kids wanted to steal my money. Heck, in that case I do not know what I would live for -- kids, take whatever I still have, use it for your family and put me out of my misery.
dllthomas 9y ago
Multi-party signatures? Something like "X has my PoA, if Y agrees that its necessary."
Chaebixi 9y ago
Couldn't you get a durable power of attorney that only comes into effect once you become "incapacitated?" If you can, I'd imagine that I'd protect against this kind of abusive guardianship without being vulnerable to the problems you outlined.
- zrail 9y ago
  That’s called a springing power of attorney. I don’t remember the specifics but my estate attorney warned against doing that.
fspeech 9y ago
This is how I think about this: I want my children to benefit from the fruit of my labor. I would like to help them enjoy their lives even after they become adults, so long as my help does not impact their sense of independence. I will enjoy (indeed love) seeing them benefit from my savings and I don't want anyone to even subconsciously wait for my death so that they can get the estate. If I were incapacitated one day I hope my children will prioritize their own needs over mine (the current "me" will no longer really be there). My first wish is not to be a burden to them. Of course I will want to make this all clear in writing so they won't need to face any moral dilemma. My kids are not adults yet. I hope my feelings towards them won't change as they mature. It will be my own greatest failing if somehow I lose my love for them and I won't be happy no matter how much wealth I have left.
throwaway567890 9y ago
I created this account to say: I have parents like yours. My parents took money from me. But fortunatly we are unusual. Most parents dont have to worry that they will face retribution for the times when they took money from there kids. It just doesnt happen that often. More often than it should but still not that often.

by Swizec 9y ago

no_excuse_ 9y ago

> When I was 10 my dad drained my and my sister's savings[1] account that way. Is this a typo? At least in my state minors cannot own anything -- their guardians do. Therefore it would have never been yours to begin with. Even then, who is 10 and has enough money to float a business?

jackvalentine 9y ago
It's fairly common around the world that minors can and do own bank accounts - usually tied to a guardian but the money is nominally 'theirs'. My 3yo niece has about 2000AUD in her bank account, from various gifts through her short life so far.
Swizec 9y ago
> Even then, who is 10 and has enough money to float a business? I don't know how much was in there, but say my parents were putting in $10 every month. By the time I was 10 that would be around $1200. In a country where median income back then was probably around $15000 that's 1 month's salary. Plenty to tie one over when they're low on cash and see a paid invoice just around the corner. I'm sure he did it with the best of intentions and with full intent to put it back in just a short while. My point is that when you are strapped for funds and you have full legal access to somebody else's funds, it can be hard to resist.
- tlear 9y ago
  This is why I am not putting anything into my kids "savings". They are not their saving they are mine. Period. If for tax reason I have to do it I will never tell them about it. Of course he should have used that money, it was his. Not to mention you most likely benefitted quite a bit from his business surviving. If that concept is not something he explained to you then he failed as parent in other ways.
  - Swizec 9y ago
    Well it also lead (among other things) to my parent’s divorce and me and my sister growing up in a single parent home with a dad who claims he’s too broke to pay child support. Afaik he still owes my mum most of it and has turned to skirting the law to get out of debt collector crosshairs. The problem isn’t that he took the money. The problem is how he did it (unilaterally and without discussion with other people whose money it also was) And his business did not survive so I didn’t benefit from that either. So yeah, how was that good for me again?

x0x0 9y ago

The alternative is my grandmother with severe alzheimer's. In her mid 70s and in very poor health, someone sold her a 30 year annuity for the vast majority of her savings. It took the family a year in court to undo the transaction.

gertef 9y ago

But really, what's wrong with that? Why is someone entitled to control accumulated wealth after they lose their faculty? Most parents live for their children. If a parent doesn't want to give wealth to their children, that's fine; the parent can give wealth to their grandchildren in trust, or anyone on the world they choose.

pc86 9y ago
This is disgusting. It's their assets and it should be handled in the way(s) they determined when they had full control of their faculties. Anything short of that is fraud, theft, and saying "what's wrong with that?" to someone just stealing money from a parent is horrible.
- blackbagboys 9y ago
  This is ridiculous property-rights absolutism. Obviously it would wrong to leave them completely bereft and unable to support themselves, but people with compromised mental faculties lose plenty of other rights; there's no reason they get to sit like a senile dragon on a hoard of accumulated wealth.
  - kbos87 9y ago
    Are you serious? That wealth belongs to them until they make a sound decision to part with it. If that means they’ve decided to purchase something and haven’t been deceived, great. If that means they pass it on to someone of their choosing when they die, that’s their right too. When someone takes advantage of their weakened mental state, that is just plain reprehensible.
  - Geekette 9y ago
    "This is ridiculous property-rights absolutism. ... there's no reason they get to sit like a senile dragon on a hoard of accumulated wealth." WTF. It isn't ridiculous to respect the fact that unless explicitly given to you, other people’s property is NOT yours and this applies to your parents too. It’s amazing that this has to be disputed at all but it explains why one sees some people with families going beyond will-making to planning for divestiture of their wealth to occur while alive later on.

lumberjack 9y ago

I think your problem is with your mentality of "my money" when it comes to you vs your children. I cannot even understand that to be honest. In cultures where children are expected to take care of their aging parents, it is pretty much a foregone conclusion that the child who ends up taking care of them gets to inherit most of the estate.

Swizec 9y ago
> I think your problem is with your mentality of "my money" when it comes to you vs your children. I cannot even understand that to be honest. Why? It's one thing when they're children, sure if I had kids I'd do everything for them (which is why I don't have them). But when they're in their 40s or 50s and still trying to mooch off me? Screw that.
- charlesdm 9y ago
  "Mooch off you"? My grandfather isn't in the best shape (he was diagnosed with alzheimer's last year) and I want to make sure the few years he has left, he can enjoy them (even if he won't remember everything). My mom has one brother, and I'm an only child, so I will (probably) indirectly inherit a decent amount of his wealth. And yet, I couldn't care less. Yes, an inheritance is nice to receive. But I'd give it up in a heartbeat if it meant having a person you love around for another 10+ years.
  - caseysoftware 9y ago
    That's awful and I'm sorry.
    - charlesdm 9y ago
      Thanks. :( That's life I guess -- you play the hand you're dealt.
  - Swizec 9y ago
    > "Mooch off you"? Yes, as per my original post where I specifically said the hypothetical person in question takes the money for their own needs, not for the needs of the person whom they have power of attorney over.

ptero 9y ago

> If you are said parent, which of the kids do you absolutely trust to never ever screw you over no matter how much incentive there is and no matter how hard a times they fall on? From the purely optimization viewpoint your "never ever" is too strict. This just has to be less likely and/or less damaging (however you want to choose a utility function) than losing your marbles and getting into a professional con artist's net. Everyone's case is different, but I personally would never take my parents money for my own goals; same for my siblings and their kids. Maybe it is just my experience, but I grew up in a strong culture of "kids first"; parents are always sacrificing something for kids and that was seen as normal. If my parents had money and knew that my kids were hungry I have absolutely no doubt that they would push it to feed their grandkids before I ask. Not to criticize your post (I think you are being unfairly downvoted), but mentally running a check on how would I feel today if I were in my 80s, totally incompetent, and my kids wanted to steal my money. Heck, in that case I do not know what I would live for -- kids, take whatever I still have, use it for your family and put me out of my misery.

dllthomas 9y ago

Multi-party signatures? Something like "X has my PoA, if Y agrees that its necessary."

Chaebixi 9y ago

Couldn't you get a durable power of attorney that only comes into effect once you become "incapacitated?" If you can, I'd imagine that I'd protect against this kind of abusive guardianship without being vulnerable to the problems you outlined.

zrail 9y ago
That’s called a springing power of attorney. I don’t remember the specifics but my estate attorney warned against doing that.

fspeech 9y ago

This is how I think about this: I want my children to benefit from the fruit of my labor. I would like to help them enjoy their lives even after they become adults, so long as my help does not impact their sense of independence. I will enjoy (indeed love) seeing them benefit from my savings and I don't want anyone to even subconsciously wait for my death so that they can get the estate. If I were incapacitated one day I hope my children will prioritize their own needs over mine (the current "me" will no longer really be there). My first wish is not to be a burden to them. Of course I will want to make this all clear in writing so they won't need to face any moral dilemma. My kids are not adults yet. I hope my feelings towards them won't change as they mature. It will be my own greatest failing if somehow I lose my love for them and I won't be happy no matter how much wealth I have left.

throwaway567890 9y ago

I created this account to say: I have parents like yours. My parents took money from me. But fortunatly we are unusual. Most parents dont have to worry that they will face retribution for the times when they took money from there kids. It just doesnt happen that often. More often than it should but still not that often.