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I know where you're coming from, but I think that's a little judgemental. Most people are either affected by or extremely concerned about poverty and welfare -

by SandB0x 16y ago

I know where you're coming from, but I think that's a little judgemental. Most people are either affected by or extremely concerned about poverty and welfare - I don't quite follow how cognitive dissonance comes into it. Maybe people don't think of responding to this, a large scale study, with personal anecdotes. There are plenty of amazing posts on HN in response to other stories. Surely it's valuable to understand more about ourselves, what affects us, and how we can offer effective help, even if the process can seem a little clinical and heartless.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
He isn't suggesting people are not concerned by poverty. He is attempting to shut down debate by suggesting that anyone who hasn't actually experienced the phenomenon under discussion is incapable of reasoning about it and is probably irrational. One could make similar statements about any topic: Anytime an article hits Hacker News such as this; that is, with explicit references to astronomy and outer space, I cringe as I read the comments[...]Psychology is largely at play here, [wikipedia articles about irrationality]. For the most part, the readership here often seems to be completely unaware of the realities in an extraterrestrial environment. [No facts provided.] I've lived a terrestrial live. I could not possibly imagine a low temperature, low pressure environment [and like me, no one else can reason about phenomena they have not personally experienced.] Such statements serve only to stifle debate, most likely in an effort to induce people to support an emotionally pleasing policy choice. When I make the same statement about an environment utterly alien to all human experience, it's obviously ridiculous. So why do we accept such a statement when it is made about nothing but a different sort of human experience?
- henrikschroder 16y ago
  He is attempting to shut down debate by suggesting that anyone who hasn't actually experienced the phenomenon under discussion is incapable of reasoning about it and is probably irrational. In my experience, people who are born and raised upper middle class have absolutely no understanding of the different social classes, or what makes people belong to one and not the other. That makes for pretty irrational arguments. :-) That said, I agree with you on the whole "shutting down debate", it's rather boring.
- rdtsc 16y ago
  Unfortunately, in this case I would agree with the original poster. Your hyperbole doesn't quite work because we are dealing with human experience here. Poverty is not just a lack of money, it is most of all a very powerful internal human experience. There is no words to describe it. Kind of like there is not words to describe effectively what falling in love or dealing with a loved one's death is. Understanding that is not just a matter of reading an equation, you have to experience it yourself in order to more effectively talk about or try to fix it. Does that stifle debate? Perhaps. I think the original poster was highlighting that it is important to keep in mind the personal experience before engaging in theoretical discussions about the subject. > So why do we accept such a statement when it is made about nothing but a different sort of human experience? The answer is in your question -- because _it is_ a human experience. It seems to boil down to "how important is human experience?" Well, that's a topic for a new thread or a new philosophical debate...
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    Why do you believe human experience is not amenable to reason and analysis by other humans, but quantum physics is? Shouldn't it be easier to reason about the familiar than the unfamiliar? In any case, I could make the same argument about different types of human experience, and you'd still reject it. Do you believe that only devout muslims can rationally opine on honor killings, or that only racists can discuss racism?
    - rdtsc 16y ago
      It is amenable to reason but only up to a limit. Certainly someone who had the experienced would be more qualified to reason about it. I would say that is even true for racism and honor killings. Someone who grew up in a muslem country or in the deep south in US will definetly understand better the underlying causes for rampant racism or why honor killings happen. As for quantum physics, I would take someone's word if I believed they could experience it. I don't think any one can, so that's why anyone that can do the maths is just as good.

by SandB0x 16y ago

yummyfajitas 16y ago

He isn't suggesting people are not concerned by poverty. He is attempting to shut down debate by suggesting that anyone who hasn't actually experienced the phenomenon under discussion is incapable of reasoning about it and is probably irrational. One could make similar statements about any topic: Anytime an article hits Hacker News such as this; that is, with explicit references to astronomy and outer space, I cringe as I read the comments[...]Psychology is largely at play here, [wikipedia articles about irrationality]. For the most part, the readership here often seems to be completely unaware of the realities in an extraterrestrial environment. [No facts provided.] I've lived a terrestrial live. I could not possibly imagine a low temperature, low pressure environment [and like me, no one else can reason about phenomena they have not personally experienced.] Such statements serve only to stifle debate, most likely in an effort to induce people to support an emotionally pleasing policy choice. When I make the same statement about an environment utterly alien to all human experience, it's obviously ridiculous. So why do we accept such a statement when it is made about nothing but a different sort of human experience?

henrikschroder 16y ago
He is attempting to shut down debate by suggesting that anyone who hasn't actually experienced the phenomenon under discussion is incapable of reasoning about it and is probably irrational. In my experience, people who are born and raised upper middle class have absolutely no understanding of the different social classes, or what makes people belong to one and not the other. That makes for pretty irrational arguments. :-) That said, I agree with you on the whole "shutting down debate", it's rather boring.
rdtsc 16y ago
Unfortunately, in this case I would agree with the original poster. Your hyperbole doesn't quite work because we are dealing with human experience here. Poverty is not just a lack of money, it is most of all a very powerful internal human experience. There is no words to describe it. Kind of like there is not words to describe effectively what falling in love or dealing with a loved one's death is. Understanding that is not just a matter of reading an equation, you have to experience it yourself in order to more effectively talk about or try to fix it. Does that stifle debate? Perhaps. I think the original poster was highlighting that it is important to keep in mind the personal experience before engaging in theoretical discussions about the subject. > So why do we accept such a statement when it is made about nothing but a different sort of human experience? The answer is in your question -- because _it is_ a human experience. It seems to boil down to "how important is human experience?" Well, that's a topic for a new thread or a new philosophical debate...
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  Why do you believe human experience is not amenable to reason and analysis by other humans, but quantum physics is? Shouldn't it be easier to reason about the familiar than the unfamiliar? In any case, I could make the same argument about different types of human experience, and you'd still reject it. Do you believe that only devout muslims can rationally opine on honor killings, or that only racists can discuss racism?
  - rdtsc 16y ago
    It is amenable to reason but only up to a limit. Certainly someone who had the experienced would be more qualified to reason about it. I would say that is even true for racism and honor killings. Someone who grew up in a muslem country or in the deep south in US will definetly understand better the underlying causes for rampant racism or why honor killings happen. As for quantum physics, I would take someone's word if I believed they could experience it. I don't think any one can, so that's why anyone that can do the maths is just as good.