4 ms·

I believe the first step to fixing a problem is to identify and admit there is a problem. Namely, there are a LOT more gun deaths in the US per capita than othe

by grecy 9y ago

I believe the first step to fixing a problem is to identify and admit there is a problem. Namely, there are a LOT more gun deaths in the US per capita than other countries that it is supposed to be a peer of (OECD countries) > but the extreme violence happening in the US ghettos is also highly unique among western countries. It sounds like you are suggesting you would like to exclude the US ghettos from the data... does that mean you would exclude them from the problem? would you say then there is no need to fix the problem there? I am really not following your reasoning. The US has a major, major problem that needs to be fixed.

dmix 9y ago
> does that mean you would exclude them from the problem? would you say then there is no need to fix the problem there? Where did I say anything close to that? I merely said the problems need to be analyzed and confronted on a culture-by-culture basis, not treated as a singular 'US gun problem'. The US is a big, highly varied country and those gun deaths have varied causes and root problems. > there are a LOT more gun deaths in the US per capita Averaging out via per capita across the country is a useless statistic, in terms of actually confronting the issue, if there are massively disproportionate events in certain areas or sub-demographics with different incentives, causes, etc. Legal gun control is not the only way to solve this problem. Especially given the US's unique legal history with firearms, current ownership rates, and the fact they are the world's biggest manufacturer and exporter of firearms. Even if they did a total ban on legal firearm sales to civilians there's still billions of guns in the country... there has to be more than that. And yet I see plenty of people perfectly satisfied with their politically-dead panacea solution.
- grecy 9y ago
  > The US is a big, highly varied country I hear this excuse over and over and over. Do you somehow think the US is unique in this situation? Do you think Australia is homogeneous? (way, way more per-capita immigration) Do you think if you remove those "ghettos" from the US stats AND the stats of other first world countries you will suddenly see the US leap ahead?
  - dmix 9y ago
    > Do you think Australia is homogeneous? (way, way more per-capita immigration) There have been plenty of studies that show immigration to poor US neighbourhoods reduces violence [1]. I don't fully understand what you're suggesting here? I'm from Toronto, we have tons of legal immigrants and while some carry violence over from their countries (gun violence is a big problem in Somali [2] and Jamaican enclaves here) but otherwise it's extremely safe, likely thanks to immigrants not in spite of them. The article I linked even suggests the best solution they found in Minnesota and Toronto for reducing gun violence was hiring Somalis to go into Somali neighbourhoods to increase inter-community reporting and educate kids - which supports what I said about approaching this on a cultural basis. Not as a general 'gun problem'. > Do you think if you remove those "ghettos" from the US stats AND the stats of other first world countries you will suddenly see the US leap ahead? I can't tell if you're trolling or not... I tried to answer your other highly suggestive questions already but I don't think I could take any more of these seriously. [1] https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Immigration_and_crime https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Immigration_and_crime [2] https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/why-so-many-somali-canadians-who-go-west-end-up-dead/article4365992/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com& https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/why-so-many-s...
microcolonel 9y ago
> I believe the first step to fixing a problem is to identify and admit there is a problem. Namely, there are a LOT more gun deaths in the US per capita than other countries that it is supposed to be a peer of (OECD countries) Using gross per capita measurements to justify federal policy affecting people's rights is bad strategy. Homicide is the problem, and it is concentrated among major subsets of some ethnic groups, and around certain forms of crime. If you look only at whites and asians, you see a similar picture to western Europe. The homicide problem in the United States is largely culturally isolated. When the response to these culturally isolated problems is further restrictions on rights (particularly of a kind that has been shown to be ineffective) rather than community outreach, social and mental health programmes, and controlled substances policy reform, you shouldn't be surprised if they feel unfairly treated.

by grecy 9y ago

dmix 9y ago

> does that mean you would exclude them from the problem? would you say then there is no need to fix the problem there? Where did I say anything close to that? I merely said the problems need to be analyzed and confronted on a culture-by-culture basis, not treated as a singular 'US gun problem'. The US is a big, highly varied country and those gun deaths have varied causes and root problems. > there are a LOT more gun deaths in the US per capita Averaging out via per capita across the country is a useless statistic, in terms of actually confronting the issue, if there are massively disproportionate events in certain areas or sub-demographics with different incentives, causes, etc. Legal gun control is not the only way to solve this problem. Especially given the US's unique legal history with firearms, current ownership rates, and the fact they are the world's biggest manufacturer and exporter of firearms. Even if they did a total ban on legal firearm sales to civilians there's still billions of guns in the country... there has to be more than that. And yet I see plenty of people perfectly satisfied with their politically-dead panacea solution.

grecy 9y ago
> The US is a big, highly varied country I hear this excuse over and over and over. Do you somehow think the US is unique in this situation? Do you think Australia is homogeneous? (way, way more per-capita immigration) Do you think if you remove those "ghettos" from the US stats AND the stats of other first world countries you will suddenly see the US leap ahead?
- dmix 9y ago
  > Do you think Australia is homogeneous? (way, way more per-capita immigration) There have been plenty of studies that show immigration to poor US neighbourhoods reduces violence [1]. I don't fully understand what you're suggesting here? I'm from Toronto, we have tons of legal immigrants and while some carry violence over from their countries (gun violence is a big problem in Somali [2] and Jamaican enclaves here) but otherwise it's extremely safe, likely thanks to immigrants not in spite of them. The article I linked even suggests the best solution they found in Minnesota and Toronto for reducing gun violence was hiring Somalis to go into Somali neighbourhoods to increase inter-community reporting and educate kids - which supports what I said about approaching this on a cultural basis. Not as a general 'gun problem'. > Do you think if you remove those "ghettos" from the US stats AND the stats of other first world countries you will suddenly see the US leap ahead? I can't tell if you're trolling or not... I tried to answer your other highly suggestive questions already but I don't think I could take any more of these seriously. [1] https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Immigration_and_crime https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Immigration_and_crime [2] https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/why-so-many-somali-canadians-who-go-west-end-up-dead/article4365992/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com& https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/why-so-many-s...

microcolonel 9y ago

> I believe the first step to fixing a problem is to identify and admit there is a problem. Namely, there are a LOT more gun deaths in the US per capita than other countries that it is supposed to be a peer of (OECD countries) Using gross per capita measurements to justify federal policy affecting people's rights is bad strategy. Homicide is the problem, and it is concentrated among major subsets of some ethnic groups, and around certain forms of crime. If you look only at whites and asians, you see a similar picture to western Europe. The homicide problem in the United States is largely culturally isolated. When the response to these culturally isolated problems is further restrictions on rights (particularly of a kind that has been shown to be ineffective) rather than community outreach, social and mental health programmes, and controlled substances policy reform, you shouldn't be surprised if they feel unfairly treated.