4 ms·

It would be interesting to see this as per-capita statistics, then compared to OECD countries.

by grecy 9y ago

pjc50 9y ago
Not quite the same data, and a few years out of date, but a really striking graph: http://crookedtimber.org/2012/07/20/america-is-a-violent-country/ http://crookedtimber.org/2012/07/20/america-is-a-violent-cou... (those figures are "death from assault", which covers more sorts of violence but excludes suicides. The OP article includes suicides.)
dmix 9y ago
Agreed. Although to draw conclusions from high-level stats like this it's necessary to drill down into the data. For example, I'd be curious if you could isolate the 'ghettos' in all the US/Canadian/European cities and allow you to toggle them within the stats to compare all the countries. People tend to talk about the unique US obsession with firearms - which is true, but the core problem is gun violence, and the amount of violence happening in the US ghettos is also highly unique among western countries. And I wouldn't be surprised if it accounted for a significant percentage of 'mass shootings' (not just the type in Vegas but as the FBI defines them with >=4 victims). Generalizing about the US gun problem as a singular 'gun problem' doesn't do them any favours. These problems won't ever be effectively confronted as a generic problem if it's multiple groups of with different cultures, incentives, circumstances, etc. People in the US have been obsessing for decades over a politically (and practically) dead options such as national gun control laws or more harsh gun sentencing as the only solutions - while missing opportunities to confront this as the nuanced individual community or cultural problem it is. Much like the drug war, there's no panacea solution in law enforcement.
- pjc50 9y ago
  Mass shootings in particular are mostly a white phenomenon: https://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-race/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in...
  - dmix 9y ago
    That graph only adds up to 90 shootings. There are far more mass shootings than that, especially over such a large timespan. What is the source of that data? But I wouldn't be surprised if they are still #1, as they are 78% of the population. Edit: the source was Mother Jones, which only lists 92 mass shootings: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/ http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-m... The FBI listed 1,518 mass shootings in 2012...
- grecy 9y ago
  I believe the first step to fixing a problem is to identify and admit there is a problem. Namely, there are a LOT more gun deaths in the US per capita than other countries that it is supposed to be a peer of (OECD countries) > but the extreme violence happening in the US ghettos is also highly unique among western countries. It sounds like you are suggesting you would like to exclude the US ghettos from the data... does that mean you would exclude them from the problem? would you say then there is no need to fix the problem there? I am really not following your reasoning. The US has a major, major problem that needs to be fixed.
  - dmix 9y ago
    > does that mean you would exclude them from the problem? would you say then there is no need to fix the problem there? Where did I say anything close to that? I merely said the problems need to be analyzed and confronted on a culture-by-culture basis, not treated as a singular 'US gun problem'. The US is a big, highly varied country and those gun deaths have varied causes and root problems. > there are a LOT more gun deaths in the US per capita Averaging out via per capita across the country is a useless statistic, in terms of actually confronting the issue, if there are massively disproportionate events in certain areas or sub-demographics with different incentives, causes, etc. Legal gun control is not the only way to solve this problem. Especially given the US's unique legal history with firearms, current ownership rates, and the fact they are the world's biggest manufacturer and exporter of firearms. Even if they did a total ban on legal firearm sales to civilians there's still billions of guns in the country... there has to be more than that. And yet I see plenty of people perfectly satisfied with their politically-dead panacea solution.
    - grecy 9y ago
      > The US is a big, highly varied country I hear this excuse over and over and over. Do you somehow think the US is unique in this situation? Do you think Australia is homogeneous? (way, way more per-capita immigration) Do you think if you remove those "ghettos" from the US stats AND the stats of other first world countries you will suddenly see the US leap ahead?

It would be interesting to see this as per-capita statistics, then compared to OECD countries.

by grecy 9y ago

It would be interesting to see this as per-capita statistics, then compared to OECD countries.

Not quite the same data, and a few years out of date, but a really striking graph: http://crookedtimber.org/2012/07/20/america-is-a-violent-country/ http://crookedtimber.org/2012/07/20/america-is-a-violent-cou... (those figures are "death from assault", which covers more sorts of violence but excludes suicides. The OP article includes suicides.)

dmix 9y ago

Agreed. Although to draw conclusions from high-level stats like this it's necessary to drill down into the data. For example, I'd be curious if you could isolate the 'ghettos' in all the US/Canadian/European cities and allow you to toggle them within the stats to compare all the countries. People tend to talk about the unique US obsession with firearms - which is true, but the core problem is gun violence, and the amount of violence happening in the US ghettos is also highly unique among western countries. And I wouldn't be surprised if it accounted for a significant percentage of 'mass shootings' (not just the type in Vegas but as the FBI defines them with >=4 victims). Generalizing about the US gun problem as a singular 'gun problem' doesn't do them any favours. These problems won't ever be effectively confronted as a generic problem if it's multiple groups of with different cultures, incentives, circumstances, etc. People in the US have been obsessing for decades over a politically (and practically) dead options such as national gun control laws or more harsh gun sentencing as the only solutions - while missing opportunities to confront this as the nuanced individual community or cultural problem it is. Much like the drug war, there's no panacea solution in law enforcement.

pjc50 9y ago
Mass shootings in particular are mostly a white phenomenon: https://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-race/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/476456/mass-shootings-in...
- dmix 9y ago
  That graph only adds up to 90 shootings. There are far more mass shootings than that, especially over such a large timespan. What is the source of that data? But I wouldn't be surprised if they are still #1, as they are 78% of the population. Edit: the source was Mother Jones, which only lists 92 mass shootings: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/ http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-m... The FBI listed 1,518 mass shootings in 2012...
grecy 9y ago
I believe the first step to fixing a problem is to identify and admit there is a problem. Namely, there are a LOT more gun deaths in the US per capita than other countries that it is supposed to be a peer of (OECD countries) > but the extreme violence happening in the US ghettos is also highly unique among western countries. It sounds like you are suggesting you would like to exclude the US ghettos from the data... does that mean you would exclude them from the problem? would you say then there is no need to fix the problem there? I am really not following your reasoning. The US has a major, major problem that needs to be fixed.
- dmix 9y ago
  > does that mean you would exclude them from the problem? would you say then there is no need to fix the problem there? Where did I say anything close to that? I merely said the problems need to be analyzed and confronted on a culture-by-culture basis, not treated as a singular 'US gun problem'. The US is a big, highly varied country and those gun deaths have varied causes and root problems. > there are a LOT more gun deaths in the US per capita Averaging out via per capita across the country is a useless statistic, in terms of actually confronting the issue, if there are massively disproportionate events in certain areas or sub-demographics with different incentives, causes, etc. Legal gun control is not the only way to solve this problem. Especially given the US's unique legal history with firearms, current ownership rates, and the fact they are the world's biggest manufacturer and exporter of firearms. Even if they did a total ban on legal firearm sales to civilians there's still billions of guns in the country... there has to be more than that. And yet I see plenty of people perfectly satisfied with their politically-dead panacea solution.
  - grecy 9y ago
    > The US is a big, highly varied country I hear this excuse over and over and over. Do you somehow think the US is unique in this situation? Do you think Australia is homogeneous? (way, way more per-capita immigration) Do you think if you remove those "ghettos" from the US stats AND the stats of other first world countries you will suddenly see the US leap ahead?