3 ms·

I don't think your argument holds up. Any service is offered under some terms; it's irrational and unreasonable to assume that when you use someone's website o

by akeefer 16y ago

I don't think your argument holds up. Any service is offered under some terms; it's irrational and unreasonable to assume that when you use someone's website or service that there are no terms whatsoever attached to that service. So where do those terms come from? Rationally, one might expect the website to spell out what they expect from you and under what conditions their services are provided. If you don't like those terms, don't use the service. It seems like you're arguing that you should get to determine under what terms the services are offered, or perhaps alternatively that services offered should never have any terms attached whatsoever; both of those positions seem pretty indefensible to me. Just because you don't get a chance to negotiate terms doesn't make them invalid. It's a take-it-or-leave it offer, and you always have the right to leave it. When a restaurant gives you a bill, do you pay less than the amount just because you didn't get to negotiate the price? Do you walk into a restaurant shirtless that explicitly asks you not to do that? Of course not: your ordering the item indicated your willingness to pay the associated charge, and likewise if you don't want to abide by their rules around appropriate dress, you just don't go in. You don't get to make up your own rules and then apply them to someone else's services. It's a different question if the TOS are deliberately obscured such that you don't actually know what you're agreeing to, but the argument that just because you can't negotiate the TOS they're somehow invalid and you're thus justified in still using the service in violation of them is absurd.

ars 16y ago
If I put up a sign on the freeway saying: "The sky is blue. By reading this message you agree to ....". Do you think that's a valid TOS? How is a website any different? > So where do those terms come from? State law. That's all. The website can not dictate any terms whatsoever. To your specific points: A restaurant is private property - they can ask me to leave if I don't wear a shirt, but they can NOT compel me to actually wear the shirt. They can't fine me for going there without a shirt, they can't do anything at all, except ask me to leave. If I buy food from a restaurant, that's a purchase and not a contact, and it uses the various state laws that govern that. But the restaurant can NOT add extra conditions. If a restaurant puts up a sign that said "by buying food here you agree to ...." - that sign is meaningless, and has no validity. A purchase order requires the signature of the buyer. Merely stating a term and saying "by doing ...." is meaningless. Those terms you find on the back of a receipt sometimes? Meaningless. They can say what the store will do, and under what conditions, but they can do nothing whatsoever to the purchaser that state law does not provide.
- akeefer 16y ago
  A website is effectively private property. Suppose my house had a nice lawn, and I said to the neighborhood kids, "You're welcome to play on my lawn, just clean up after yourselves and don't hurt the flowers." Is that reasonable? How about if, instead of communicating that to them, I instead put up a sign to that effect? Is it cool if the kids play on my lawn and mess up my flower bed because they don't like those terms and couldn't negotiate them? Of course not: I've laid out the rules for their usage of my private property, and if they don't like the rules they can do something else with their time. I'm not saying a website should be able to sue you or file criminal complaints if you violate a TOS; I'm just saying that they do have the right to expect you to abide by them if you choose to use the site. They should be able to behave exactly as a restaurant does: kick you out if you violate them, and file criminal complaints only if you actually do something criminal (cause damage, steal stuff, abuse staff, etc.). Whether or not a TOS is criminally enforceable is a long ways away from your argument, which I interpreted as essentially saying that breaking/ignoring a TOS isn't any sort of ethical violation because it's not a countersigned negotiated contract.
  - ars 16y ago
    A website is not like private property. And even if it was, a TOS would be invalid on private property. You can SAY don't mess up flowers, but you can't endorse it. The only rights you have are those given by state law, your TOS is nothing. Suppose you put up a sign that says: "If you mess up the flowers you must replant them." Those words are meaningless. You simply do not have the power to do that. You can sue for damages, but only because state law says so. What you wrote on the sign is meaningless. A TOS is totally invalid, and you can ignore it entirely. Both on a website, and on private property. The only rights you have are those given to you by state law. Unless you sign a contact of course. But you can't create a contract merely because someone came to your house, or to your website.

by akeefer 16y ago

ars 16y ago

If I put up a sign on the freeway saying: "The sky is blue. By reading this message you agree to ....". Do you think that's a valid TOS? How is a website any different? > So where do those terms come from? State law. That's all. The website can not dictate any terms whatsoever. To your specific points: A restaurant is private property - they can ask me to leave if I don't wear a shirt, but they can NOT compel me to actually wear the shirt. They can't fine me for going there without a shirt, they can't do anything at all, except ask me to leave. If I buy food from a restaurant, that's a purchase and not a contact, and it uses the various state laws that govern that. But the restaurant can NOT add extra conditions. If a restaurant puts up a sign that said "by buying food here you agree to ...." - that sign is meaningless, and has no validity. A purchase order requires the signature of the buyer. Merely stating a term and saying "by doing ...." is meaningless. Those terms you find on the back of a receipt sometimes? Meaningless. They can say what the store will do, and under what conditions, but they can do nothing whatsoever to the purchaser that state law does not provide.

akeefer 16y ago
A website is effectively private property. Suppose my house had a nice lawn, and I said to the neighborhood kids, "You're welcome to play on my lawn, just clean up after yourselves and don't hurt the flowers." Is that reasonable? How about if, instead of communicating that to them, I instead put up a sign to that effect? Is it cool if the kids play on my lawn and mess up my flower bed because they don't like those terms and couldn't negotiate them? Of course not: I've laid out the rules for their usage of my private property, and if they don't like the rules they can do something else with their time. I'm not saying a website should be able to sue you or file criminal complaints if you violate a TOS; I'm just saying that they do have the right to expect you to abide by them if you choose to use the site. They should be able to behave exactly as a restaurant does: kick you out if you violate them, and file criminal complaints only if you actually do something criminal (cause damage, steal stuff, abuse staff, etc.). Whether or not a TOS is criminally enforceable is a long ways away from your argument, which I interpreted as essentially saying that breaking/ignoring a TOS isn't any sort of ethical violation because it's not a countersigned negotiated contract.
- ars 16y ago
  A website is not like private property. And even if it was, a TOS would be invalid on private property. You can SAY don't mess up flowers, but you can't endorse it. The only rights you have are those given by state law, your TOS is nothing. Suppose you put up a sign that says: "If you mess up the flowers you must replant them." Those words are meaningless. You simply do not have the power to do that. You can sue for damages, but only because state law says so. What you wrote on the sign is meaningless. A TOS is totally invalid, and you can ignore it entirely. Both on a website, and on private property. The only rights you have are those given to you by state law. Unless you sign a contact of course. But you can't create a contract merely because someone came to your house, or to your website.