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Nine Rounds a Second: Why the Las Vegas Shooting Was Different
- troisx 9y agoI'm a firearms enthusiast and was shocked to read that the rotating trigger mechanism wasn't outlawed. It almost definitely will be after this massacre. I also think that this is a strong case of genetics at play considering that the shooter didn't even spend time with his bank robber father. The psychopath apple didn't fall far from the psychopath tree.
- adamnemecek 9y ago> I also think that this is a strong case of genetics at play considering that the shooter didn't even spend time with his bank robber father. The psychopath apple didn't fall far from the psychopath tree. Wow doesn't that fit nicely into some narrative. His phrenologic profile was off the charts too and a Virgo on top of that!
- troisx 9y agoWhat narrative? That science is important? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2242349/#!po=15.8228 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2242349/#!po=15... There's more where that came from.
- ultimoo 9y agoI understand everyone is upset about what this terrorist did, so am I. However, we should be cautious about making statements about genetics. Apart from there not being any major scientific research behind it, it also leads to disturbing effects like the state detaining blood relatives of someone that commits crime because they will be more at risk of committing crimes in the future, thought-crimes, etc.
- Bromskloss 9y ago> this terrorist Do we know this? Do we know what his motivation was?
- flukus 9y agoNot yet, but considering the sheer amount of guns in his hotel and home plus the explosives I'm willing to bet something motivated him more than mental illness.
- Bromskloss 9y agoI'm afraid I don't follow. Are you referring to something particular? (Sorry for being thick!)
- flukus 9y agoThey found explosives and chemicals to make more at his home: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-03/las-vegas-shooting-guns-ammunition-explosives-stephen-paddock/9010698 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-03/las-vegas-shooting-gun... He's not just a random crazy person that bought a gun and went on a spree, there was a lot of planning involved, so he's probably a terrorist of some sort.
- dragonwriter 9y agoDeliberately planning mass murder doesn't make you a terrorist, just a mass murderer; terrorism is defined by a very specific kind of motivation that is far from the only motivation for planned mass murder.
- RealGeek 9y agoDoes his motivations make it any less terrorizing for the victims?
- Bromskloss 9y agoIt strikes terror (in the sense of _fear_) into the victims there and then all the same, sure. I was talking about whether or not it constitutes _terrorism_, though. I mean, it's terrorism if the purpose is to spread fear in a way that will further some cause, but not every killing is terrorism, right?
- thebooktocome 9y ago> It almost definitely will be after this massacre. No new gun control laws came out of Sandy Hook, or any of the other mass shootings in this decade. Why should this one be any different?
- goatherders 9y agoIt won't. Our senators and congressmen are cowards.
- swsieber 9y agoI think the lack of a father figure plays into more than genetics. Additionally, fathers and sons share more than just genetics. They quite often share upbringing and culture. Not to mention the Father set that example of bank robbing.
- 1wheel 9y agoI was surprised to see how simple the crank modification was http://twozprecision.com/product/gatcrank-15/ http://twozprecision.com/product/gatcrank-15/ Looks like a bump stock was used though https://apnews.com/e74a33083fb84b1b94c1ce3da986fd4f https://apnews.com/e74a33083fb84b1b94c1ce3da986fd4f
- prostoalex 9y agoI am not an enthusiast, hence the question - if outlawed, how difficult would it be for someone to re-create it in a metal shop, or with a 3D printer? I'd assume the designs are floating on the Internet somewhere.
- dingaling 9y agoEven the hallowed 'automatic sear' is just an arrangement of small metal shapes and springs. The annual volumes of Jane's Infantry Weapons used to have diagrams and detailed descriptions of the sears' operation. It's only penalties of law that prevents people making or distributing them, not complexity or wizardry. On the other hand the majority of NATO training emphasises rapid single shots, with bursts only for initiating ambush or breaking contact ( and usually only when authorised by the NCO ). Being limited to single-shot isn't therefore too much of a restriction.
- RandVal30142 9y agoSelling my Romanian AK-47 and other firearms obtained through purchase or inheritance felt great. Since then there has been several mass casualty shootings in the states. Wish I burned them now. edit: I didn't get rid of my collection over any huge reason, just didn't want the liability sitting around home when I haven't gone shooting in years. That said I feel like I've made a critical mistake in yielding my arms to people who would likely be less responsible than I during my ownership. For anyone in the same position remember you can disable most firearms pretty easily by kludging a part or two. Hopefully will save someone that nagging feeling I have.
- xutopia 9y agoYou aren't responsible for other people's heinous acts.
- RandVal30142 9y agoI know, but I don't know. It is obviously my duty to deescalate & inhibit violence in my community when possible, while restricting people's avenues to tools that multiply the potential damage they can inflict. This is why we have mental health care and regulations for buying explosives. The best I could figure with my firearms at the time was selling them to the most responsible party possible, in my case it was gunsmiths. Recently some criminals attempted to break into their shop. Didn't get away with anything. So my choice already yielded measurable results in a way. I'm not responsible people's heinous acts, but I am responsible for the environment people choose to act in.
- yongjik 9y agoThank you for taking your responsibility seriously. (I first wrote "...for being responsible", but then it has two opposite possible readings. Yikes.)
- unethical_ban 9y agoI hope you aren't suggesting selling people a broken firearm. If you want to be extra cautious in storing weapons, you can take the bolt or firing pin out and store it in a different place. I keep an old rifle out in my house for decoration, but the bolt is stored in the safe.
- ThrustVectoring 9y agoMainstream journalism being fast-and-loose with weapon definitions again. I'm not sure if the NY times can't get it right, or they don't want to. "Assault-style rifle" has no definition from what I can tell, other than getting used repeatedly by the news when "assault rifle" is technically incorrect but it looks like an assault rifle and they want to use the word "assault" near the word "rifle". And "semiautomatic AR-15-style assault rifle" is just wrong. Semiautomatic-only rifles are not considered assault rifles.
- ScottBurson 9y agoOkay, but why are these distinctions important to this situation? Are you saying that there's been no legislation proposed that could have reduced the number of rounds per second this shooter could fire?
- ThrustVectoring 9y agoThe distinctions aren't important for the Las Vegas shooting, but they are important for the national discussion around gun laws. I would much rather have laws created through processes that don't abuse language to create fear in the wake of tragedy.
- sidlls 9y agoI don't think the language is what's creating fear, here. It's the guns. More specifically the casual, easy availability of guns and the numerous mass murders that happen annually with them. It's not like calling them "just guns" or whatever diminishes the fear. Or maybe it would diminish the fear--and I think that's a bit insidious to be honest. We (collectively) should fear a tool having as its only purpose to seriously injure or kill things, including (especially) people.
- Merad 9y agoI suppose that depends on your POV. There are a variety of currently legal accessories that one can buy to make a semi-automatic rifle fire more rapidly. Primarily these are trigger cranks, bump fire stocks, and binary triggers. You can make these devices illegal, but out of the three trigger cranks are trivially easy to make, and bump firing is fairly easy to do with no accessories. And honestly, with hand tools and a basic amount of mechanical knowledge, it isn't very difficult to (illegally) modify most rifles to fully automatic fire.
- minkzilla 9y agoI'd like to preface this by saying that yes those modifications should be illegal. However, would that have made difference? I am not that knowledgeable on the subject of gun modification, but aren't those things that would be added after purchase? And things someone could create themselves? They seems like fairly simple mechanics from short descriptions of them. So sure, outlaw them because they certainly aren't something any gun owner needs. But I don't think that would have made a difference in this situation. I doubt he had all those guns in the hotel legally. It is not like he waltzed in with his guns out in the open, he was hiding them already.
- ardit33 9y agoThe problem of the right to bear arms is that it was done during a time when weapons were single shot, and hard to reload. There were limits to what you could do. Now you can classify many of these weapon as having the potential for mass killings (not very different than explosives). Should shotguns, and single shot rifles be allowed to be bought and sold freely? Sure, as they seem to fit the idea of what an weapon during the time was, and the right is in the constitution. Should rapid fire machine guns be allowed? Probably not. The battle is where do you draw the line of what is allowed and what is not.
- Bromskloss 9y agoHistorical reasons aside, what is the difference between slow and fast weapons that would make one want to allow the one but not the other? As a first approximation, it would seem that any argument that could be given for allowing or disallowing either of the types would be applicable also to the other type.
- goatherders 9y agoThere are no differences.
- SAI_Peregrinus 9y agoFast weapons let people do more damage in a given period of time.
- jxm262 9y agoI'm sorry but I'm still a bit confused. Read through the article and others online, but I don't actually see it mentioned exactly what weapon was used. Is it literally an AR-15 that had some sort of change done to it? They mention 2 guns were used, but only talk about the one and don't offer much details. Asking out of curiousity, since everything I've read online doesn't really seem to just get to the point.
- 1wheel 9y agoRight now it isn't clear, exactly, what weapon and modifications where used. This piece is being updated as we find out more https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/02/us/las-vegas-mass-shooting-weapons.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/02/us/las-vegas-mass-shootin...
- minkzilla 9y agoI do not believe it is known yet. Most of this is speculation. Hence the analyzing the fire rate.
- trhway 9y agojudging that the 90 shots in the article were done without clip change i'd speculate (based on quick Googling as i haven't touched any weapons since AK74 shooting exercises during ROTC training 24 years ago) that it was something like 100 rounds double drum AR15. The rate of fire during stretches - 11-12 per seconds suggests that the rifle itself was probably either bump stocked or converted to fully automatic. According to some news the guy also had AK47. AK has slower rate of fire - 10/sec, so that specific sound clip in the article is of AR15 not AK (there are some other sound clips from the shooting that do sound like AK).
- chrissnell 9y agoI'm a gun owner and own a lot of firearms, including a number of semi-automatic rifles. I have never liked the bump stocks, crank triggers, and binary triggers. These "almost NFA" items are just so incredibly degenerate. You never see quality people firing these things at the gun range--it's always a scumbag. I will not cry if a bipartisan group of legislators bans the sale of these items.
- Bromskloss 9y ago> You never see quality people firing these things at the gun range--it's always a scumbag. I'm not sure that argument would fly, but I would love to see you apply it when proposing a law! It doesn't have to be about guns even, just anything. :-)
- tomschlick 9y agoAs a fellow gun enthusiast, I agree. I have shot real NFA select fire weapons (full/burst) and while they are a fun day at the range, there is little legitimate purpose for them outside of laying down cover fire. These modifications that make something "almost NFA" have always rubbed me the wrong way. I wouldn't be surprised if the ATF issues a new opinion letter regulating their manufacture / sale.
- minkzilla 9y agoI am curious, why is HN keeping articles about the shooting off the front page?
- jakebasile 9y agoIt’s very likely being flagged off the front page. Flagging can be used on topics that are guaranteed to start a flamewar and boy is this an evergreen flame festival topic.
- toomanybeersies 9y agoI gather it's because they generally fall into general news, rather than things that would be specifically interesting to HN, and also because stories about mass shootings always tend to degenerate into people just insulting each other.
- rabboRubble 9y agoWe cling to the "right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" portion of the 2nd amendment, but forget the preceding piece of the same amendment "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State". What we have now is the absence of domestic security and no evidence of a well regulated militia. We kowtow to the ever expanding security theater encompassing the small activities in our lives, and our day to day freedom decreases with each pat down and purse search. The people at this show were screened, patted down, searched and then fenced in. They were the proverbial fish in a barrel and they were being shot at. Where is the well-ordered militia that has lists of citizens who have arms stock piles like Paddock? When are citizens with militia level armaments trained in an ordered and effective fashion so that we may call upon them in times of crisis? When are arms-bearing citizens evaluated for their mental stability to ensure they exercise their rights in a fashion that promotes the security of a free state? We do none of these things because we are a failing state. By failing state, I specifically mean that we are failing to fully implement laws and regulations that enact the full meaning and intent of the 2nd amendment.
- blaike 9y agoI'd like to see your 'militia' handle a rain of bullets from above you fucking mall ninja.
- reitanqild 9y agoAs someone who defends the right to own guns this still resonates with me. Somewhere in between "doing nothing" and trying to "ban all guns" there is a good solution waiting to be found. Meanwhile the discussion seems deadlocked and I guess many of us can understand both sides.
- notacoward 9y ago> the discussion seems deadlocked It doesn't help when people who have explicitly called for an in-between solution get called "gungrabbers". I also support the right to bear arms - some arms, some places, perhaps subject to some conditions or requirements. But because I don't toe the NRA line, I get called names. Maybe part of the solution would be people matching their rhetoric to their intentions, instead of saying one thing and doing another.
- jc-arp 9y agoMost people drive assault weapons too