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As a counterexample, C# needed expensive language extensions to accommodate both LINQ and Async/await. Both can be implemented in Haskell purely as a library, t

As a counterexample, C# needed expensive language extensions to accommodate both LINQ and Async/await. Both can be implemented in Haskell purely as a library, thanks to HKTs. Both Java and C# tend to rely heavily on frameworks such as Spring to workaround issues with the expressivity of the languages. This causes problems when one needs two frameworks (they don't in general compose). In Haskell, HKTs allow one to write polymorphic programs that are parametric with respect to certain behaviours and dependencies, no dependency injection framework needed. Please don't judge Haskell using Scala and scalaz.

AndrewBissell 9y ago
I'm not sure what Java expressivity problem Spring is meant to solve. XML configs are basically just a duplication of what would be done in a static initializer, except you lose type-checking and get to find your wiring mistakes at startup time instead of compile time. Autowiring annotations can be nice when you first use them, but become inscrutable magic once some other poor sap has to come along and make changes to the original project setup. I just don't understand what is so horrible and inexpressive about a static initialization block. The only possible purpose I see to Spring is if for some reason you really need to be able to change how your dependencies are injected at runtime. (90% of Spring apologists point to this, and 99% of them never use it in practice.) Even then, I don't see how a Spring XML config file (which I have seen run to 4000+ lines, to my horror) is better than just reading some settings out of a properties file to pick an implementation in your static initializer.
- willtim 9y ago
  I guess passing parameters down manually through all the constructors gets too painful. The language is not expressive enough for a Reader monad! :) Java's static initialiser blocks are too dangerous whenever one has threads.
mpartel 9y ago
Not sure about LINQ, I thought that was "just" syntactic sugar for a bunch of collection methods. Are you refering to extension methods as an unfortunate prerequisite? But I think I get your general point: things like 'Control.Concurrent.Async' ('async'/'await') and 'Control.Monad.Coroutine' ('yield') are libraries that implement some and very generic type classes: 'Functor', 'Applicative', 'Monad'. This then lets you use features that are generic over those type classes ('do' syntax, 'fmap', ...). It's been many years since I had a proper look at Haskell. Maybe it just takes more practice than I had back then to fully "get it". But I still don't see those abstractions being that useful in everyday programming. They seem to have huge potential for hard to follow code as you need to mentally unpack and remember more layers of abstraction, and the gain is not clear to me. Even the features that have trickled down to C# are not _that_ crucial I feel. The way mainstream languages pick the most useful use cases of those abstractions seems pretty OK to me. (Also, macros and compiler plugins are another interesting avenue towards very powerful abstractions, with a different set of problems.) As for Spring and dependency injection, I don't follow how HKTs would help there. Could you give an example? Aren't DI frameworks mostly about looking things up with reflection magic to automate, and arguably just obfuscate, the task of wiring things up in 'main'?
- runT1ME 9y ago
  >They seem to have huge potential for hard to follow code as you need to mentally unpack and remember more layers of abstraction That's the beauty of abstraction without side effects, you don't need to unpack anything. If you know what the inputs are and the outputs are, you don't need to know how it works or what type classes are even used to transform certain things. People use sequence all the time in Scala, not realizing it's only able to be implemented with HKTs of Applicative and Traverse. FYI, sequence flips a list of Futures to a Future of List, or a vector of Trys to a Try of Vector, etc.
  - mpartel 9y ago
    Fair point about 'sequence'. There are probably a bunch of these I use regularly in Scala without realizing it. Though as a counterpoint, 'Future.sequence' wouldn't really lose _that_ much if it didn't return a collection of the same type. And I haven't yet felt the need for a generic `sequence`, which I'm sure scalaz has. I don't buy your point about not needing to unpack side-effectless code, however. There are _always_ reasons to dig into code, be it bugs, surprising edge cases, poor documentation, insufficient performance, or even just curiosity. And those high-level abstractions tend to be visible in module interfaces too. I remember some Haskell libraries being very hard to figure out how to use if you didn't know your category theory :)
    - hota_mazi 9y ago
      It's a pretty typical symptom I've seen a lot of hardcore FP developers exhibit: they forget how much time it took them to reach their level of mastery. It's like spending ten years learning to speak Russian and then criticizing anyone who says that learning Russian is difficult. Puzzling out scalaz code is difficult and requires an enormous investment in hours and practice, investment that a lot of people prefer to put into different learnings.
      - willtim 9y ago
        Mainstream developers forget just how much time they invest in learning the latest fad frameworks with new ad-hoc concepts and terminology. I guess "Hardcore FP developers" are fed up with this state of affairs and are looking towards mathematics to provide guidance and common patterns/names. At least any knowledge of mathematics will not become outdated!

AndrewBissell 9y ago

I'm not sure what Java expressivity problem Spring is meant to solve. XML configs are basically just a duplication of what would be done in a static initializer, except you lose type-checking and get to find your wiring mistakes at startup time instead of compile time. Autowiring annotations can be nice when you first use them, but become inscrutable magic once some other poor sap has to come along and make changes to the original project setup. I just don't understand what is so horrible and inexpressive about a static initialization block. The only possible purpose I see to Spring is if for some reason you really need to be able to change how your dependencies are injected at runtime. (90% of Spring apologists point to this, and 99% of them never use it in practice.) Even then, I don't see how a Spring XML config file (which I have seen run to 4000+ lines, to my horror) is better than just reading some settings out of a properties file to pick an implementation in your static initializer.

willtim 9y ago
I guess passing parameters down manually through all the constructors gets too painful. The language is not expressive enough for a Reader monad! :) Java's static initialiser blocks are too dangerous whenever one has threads.

mpartel 9y ago

Not sure about LINQ, I thought that was "just" syntactic sugar for a bunch of collection methods. Are you refering to extension methods as an unfortunate prerequisite? But I think I get your general point: things like 'Control.Concurrent.Async' ('async'/'await') and 'Control.Monad.Coroutine' ('yield') are libraries that implement some and very generic type classes: 'Functor', 'Applicative', 'Monad'. This then lets you use features that are generic over those type classes ('do' syntax, 'fmap', ...). It's been many years since I had a proper look at Haskell. Maybe it just takes more practice than I had back then to fully "get it". But I still don't see those abstractions being that useful in everyday programming. They seem to have huge potential for hard to follow code as you need to mentally unpack and remember more layers of abstraction, and the gain is not clear to me. Even the features that have trickled down to C# are not _that_ crucial I feel. The way mainstream languages pick the most useful use cases of those abstractions seems pretty OK to me. (Also, macros and compiler plugins are another interesting avenue towards very powerful abstractions, with a different set of problems.) As for Spring and dependency injection, I don't follow how HKTs would help there. Could you give an example? Aren't DI frameworks mostly about looking things up with reflection magic to automate, and arguably just obfuscate, the task of wiring things up in 'main'?

runT1ME 9y ago
>They seem to have huge potential for hard to follow code as you need to mentally unpack and remember more layers of abstraction That's the beauty of abstraction without side effects, you don't need to unpack anything. If you know what the inputs are and the outputs are, you don't need to know how it works or what type classes are even used to transform certain things. People use sequence all the time in Scala, not realizing it's only able to be implemented with HKTs of Applicative and Traverse. FYI, sequence flips a list of Futures to a Future of List, or a vector of Trys to a Try of Vector, etc.
- mpartel 9y ago
  Fair point about 'sequence'. There are probably a bunch of these I use regularly in Scala without realizing it. Though as a counterpoint, 'Future.sequence' wouldn't really lose _that_ much if it didn't return a collection of the same type. And I haven't yet felt the need for a generic `sequence`, which I'm sure scalaz has. I don't buy your point about not needing to unpack side-effectless code, however. There are _always_ reasons to dig into code, be it bugs, surprising edge cases, poor documentation, insufficient performance, or even just curiosity. And those high-level abstractions tend to be visible in module interfaces too. I remember some Haskell libraries being very hard to figure out how to use if you didn't know your category theory :)
  - hota_mazi 9y ago
    It's a pretty typical symptom I've seen a lot of hardcore FP developers exhibit: they forget how much time it took them to reach their level of mastery. It's like spending ten years learning to speak Russian and then criticizing anyone who says that learning Russian is difficult. Puzzling out scalaz code is difficult and requires an enormous investment in hours and practice, investment that a lot of people prefer to put into different learnings.
    - willtim 9y ago
      Mainstream developers forget just how much time they invest in learning the latest fad frameworks with new ad-hoc concepts and terminology. I guess "Hardcore FP developers" are fed up with this state of affairs and are looking towards mathematics to provide guidance and common patterns/names. At least any knowledge of mathematics will not become outdated!